A Conversation for Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Jul 1, 2005
Hi Fraggle
I like your Entry, and think it would make a good contribution to the Edited Guide, but there's a bit too much work for a Sub-editor to do in its present state, so I'm going to ask you to make a few changes.
You might like to add a link about William Webb Ellis, such as http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/rugby_union/features/newsid_3152000/3152418.stm
The title - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide… ~~~> Rugby Union – An Outsiders Guide…
All "double quotes" need to be changed to 'single quotes'
All numbers under 10 need to be written in words.
No words allowed in all Caps, please use bold instead.
"(13 in the League code, but someone else can explain that)" This might be better as a Footnote, and maybe reworded as something like "13 players in rugby league".
The numbered Headers are a bit too long to be Headers. Suggest "Simple, huh?" as the Header and the numbered Headers as bold.
"unless you are the poor bastard lying in the path of the ball's" please replace "bastard" with some other word.
Some of the comments in brackets will need to go, such as (Roy Keane, for example) and (back to Henson and his tackles on, well, anyone during the 2005 RBS Six Nations).
Please delete Footnote three.
Emmily
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Fraggle Posted Jul 2, 2005
Thanks Emmily - just a quick question or two:
why delete footnote three?
Fair point on the headers, but I think they look alright. I'll give it a go and see what it looks like.
I like my comments in brackets! Do I have to delete them?
I actually didn't know about the bold thing - didn't think you could do it in GuideML. Still learning, you see...
I'll make the changes ASAP, but I'm off to Live8 today, so I will have to do it tomorrow...
Cheers,
Fraggle
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Jul 2, 2005
Hope you had a great day Fraggle
Ok, to you questions
"why delete footnote three?"
>"3. See Gavin Henson’s tackle on Jamie Noon in the 2005 Wales v. England RBS Six Nations match – that is technically known as getting battered in a gentlemanly but firm manner."
See him where? Whereever it is, it's unlikely very many people will be able to see it, remembering that h2g2 is world wide.
Personally, I like your Headers, the problem is they're more like sentences, than Headers. It's very likely that a Sub-editor will change them, if that's going to happen, better that you choose a shorter header, or a different way. I'll get some advice on the Headers, and get back to you.
Same with the comments in brackets, you may loose them during the editing process. Leave them if you want, but don't be surprised if they're not in the edited copy.
When an Entry is picked (and accepted by the Editors) a copy is created, the copy is what the goes through the editing process, so even if changes are made on the copy, you will still have the original Entry.
If you want add the link on William Webb Ellis, but are unsure how, give us a shout here, either myself, or someone else will help you with it.
You might find these pages of use
Using Approved GuideML in the Edited Guide - A264520
English Usage in the Edited Guide - A266131
Emmily
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho Posted Jul 2, 2005
There's an awful lot of work still to be done on this entry I think. It's trying much too hard to be funny, and in doing so is utterly unfunny. Parts of it are completely fabricated - the suggestion that New Zealand are exempt from the forward passing rule for instance. Other parts will almost certainly be removed during the editing process - "or what actually goes into KFC" for instance. The Editors prefer as little of the entry as possible in brackets - as far as I recall they feel that putting content in brackets reduces its importance, but I can't remember which Help Page that piece of advice is on.
As far as the headers are concerned, I think most of them could be subheaders under a couple of seperate headers. I'd love to be able to make a helpful suggestion about how, but the entry is quite impenetrable to me.
I started reading this entry knowing little about rugby union, and I finished it not knowing a whole lot more, so as an informative piece of writing it really doesn't do its job. I think this has an awful long way to go before it can be recommended. I'd love to be able to make a helpful suggestion about how, but the entry is quite impenetrable to me.
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
echomikeromeo Posted Jul 2, 2005
My general feeling about this entry is that it is aimed at an audience who are already rugby insiders. I know absolutely nothing about rugby, and I'm getting the feeling that there are a lot of 'jokes' and references that only people who are more familiar with the game would get. Try taking a look at your entry imagining that you know absolutely nothing about the game, and you may see some of the points where the explanations are rather unclear to the complete novice. If you could try to explain some things a little more clearly so that they make sense to an idiot American like me, that would be very nice, thank you.
I don't think I ever want to get near rugby. Looks like a very incomprehensible sport - even more so than cricket!
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
the_jon_m - bluesman of the parish Posted Jul 2, 2005
nitpicks, you mention takign apenalty is a lot like a conversion, but not actually what a conversion or a try is, or their points score
At a proper level (ie country and above), Props and Hookers are rather different physically. Hookers are generally the lightest people in the pack
At lowever levels I have played in a very rainy windy match where were managed to get the scrum to last 5 minutes cause it was too cold to play properly. It annoyed the flankers who acutally wanted to play and were cold on the outside
I agree with some the the above comments that it is trying rather hard to be funny and hence is in-joking
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
DrMatt Posted Jul 3, 2005
And we wouldn't want to let any in-jokes creep into h2g2, would we?
For me, I think that this is far more interesting than a dry reading of the rules would be, gets across some of the character and stereotypes of the game and its a bit killjoyish to suggest that they irretrievably damage the Entry.
That said, I agree that going through it again reading it as (say) an American with no knowledge of Rugby would do it a world of good. And if the Entry is still here and unchanged in ten years time, the names of players would mean very little to the average reader so they should probably go.
It's a difficult line to walk, to appeal to those who do know the game without confusing those who don't. I think all the others are trying to say is that it's currently more of the former than the latter. Don't get discouraged!
Matt
PS How was Live 8?
PPS Sorry about that whole Lions thing
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Reefgirl (Brunel Baby) Posted Jul 3, 2005
I agree with most of the above comments, this is a good entry for those who don't know much about rugby but a couple of links to the RFU and a more serious entry (if there is one) may help, maybe naming some of the 'legends' of the game instead of todays players may be better in the long run
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
echomikeromeo Posted Jul 3, 2005
<>
Do I detect a note of sarcasm there, Matt? There are certainly h2g2 in-jokes, but in an Edited Guide entry I think it makes sense to appeal to the widest audience as possible.
That being said, I certainly agree with your idea of balancing the appeal for those who are familiar with rugby to an explanation for those who aren't. How about it, then?
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Cardi Posted Jul 5, 2005
A great entry so far...it needs editing and publishing now. There is a wowful lack of rugby on the H2G2 site. The editors are all probably wussy football players.
Anyway I love the comments about the forwards intelligence...I guess you're a big girl blouse style, back then! My IQ is much higher than erm 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (counts on fingers) then...em...er...times 10 thats, erm, er lots I think!
I just hope your entry doesn't get buried in the system as deep as the All Blacks have just buried the Lions! wah>
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho Posted Jul 5, 2005
I think some people are mixing up in-jokes with student humour here. There may be some in-jokes in the entry, but not being a rugby player I wouldn't know for sure. However, the entry is peppered with student humour - the sort of humour that appeals to people who are of an age and mindset where they believe the funniest thing you can do is to steal a Traffilamp/dustbin/traffic cone and place it somewhere you wouldn't expect to find one.
There's a lot of student humour in DNA's writing, which is why so many people write entries in a Douglas Adams style, thinking it's what the Editors are looking for in an edited entry. It isn't. Nor are they looking for too many in-jokes in an entry - it has to appeal to a wide audience, but without becoming too anaemic and boring.
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Fraggle Posted Jul 6, 2005
Ouch. That hurt. Guess I'll just pull the whole bloody thing off and start again then, with no emotion, or anything that can be misconstrued as trying to be funny.
I can't help it if I have a similar sense of humour to DNA.
Back to the drawing board.
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho Posted Jul 6, 2005
No need to throw a tantrum mate. If you want an entry to get into the Edited Guide all you've got to do is write it in a manner which encourage the Editors to accept it when a Scout offers it to them as recommendation. If you write it with no humour that's unlikely.
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Fraggle Posted Jul 6, 2005
Sorry. Bad day. Not a tantrum as such, just I've had a lot of positive feedback when I posted the article and all of a sudden 10 people tell me it's pants. Just confused. I can understand GuideML issues, and general syntax and presentation, and Matt's comments about modern players not standing up in years to come (probably got their legs bitten off by Grewcock), but I write the way I think. Simple as that. It's a bit soul destroying to have a lot of work pulled apart, but I guess that's writing. I'll have another look when I'm not as knackered and see what changes I can make.
The reason I included humour is because rugby is a funny sport. From jokes in the changing room to the whole concept of burly men (and women) chucking themselves around a muddy park getting hurt, trodden on, injured and cold for the sake of enjoyment. I've played, and some of the funniest things I've ever seen were on a rugby pitch.
I think it will need a complete rewrite, because the "humour" is kind of what holds it all together. Sorry if I appeared petulant, but as I said, it's been a bad day.
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Reefgirl (Brunel Baby) Posted Jul 6, 2005
I like it the way it is, the EG needs a bit of humour
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Jul 6, 2005
It's not that bad without the so-called 'student humour', take a look here A4300642 Fraggle.
That's your Entry minus most of the humour, plus a bit of formatting, and the change of a few words here and there.
See what you think of it. Where I've put ** I think needs explaining a bit clearer, if possible, and there's a paragraph that ends suddenly, with the word "more" I've put ... there, needs a better ending I think.
If you do like it, it will still need a bit more work on it, such as some of the advcie above.
Emmily
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Smij - Formerly Jimster Posted Jul 6, 2005
Stick with it, Fraggle - some of the best h2g2 entries go through changes before they make it into the Guide.
The Guidelines do stress not to force the humour, but to be honest this does read very well and very few of the jokes seem to the detriment of the entry. Then again, I was a very unwilling Rugby player, so it just feels like revenge.
It's worth considering some of the negative points raised, simply because even though this is aimed at the non-Rugby fan, it will still attract attention from fans who might think you're just poking fun, or might even leap on your entry if it contains inaccuracies rather than humourous exagerations. Don't forget, you're so close to completiion now a lot of the really hard work is done. Now we're just into the pernickity fiddling that makes a good entry great.
[notes that we don't have a smiley... ]
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho Posted Jul 6, 2005
That can happen sometimes in a PR thread. The people who initially commented on your entry were for the most part not regular or experienced peer reviewers. They appeared to be commenting on a personal level rather than looking at the entry as a potential EG inclusion.
The problem with the humour in this entry (in my opinion) is that it tries too hard. In doing so it not only fails to be funny but detracts from the information in the entry and obfuscates it, and in a piece of writing which is intended to convey information, that is counterproductive to say the least. I learned virtually nothing about rugby league that I didn't already know, so as a beginners guide it didn't do its job.
There is *some* humour in most edited entries, and a lot of humour in a few of them, but for the Editors to accept an entry for editing, it has to be something that people are going to be able to read and get information from.
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream Posted Jul 6, 2005
>"I learned virtually nothing about rugby league that I didn't already know, so as a beginners guide it didn't do its job."
If you already know about rugby, then would you learn from any beginners guide?
I knew nothing about rugby, but have learnt from this Entry
Emmily
Key: Complain about this post
A4099539 - Rugby Union – an outsiders guide…
- 21: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Jul 1, 2005)
- 22: Fraggle (Jul 2, 2005)
- 23: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Jul 2, 2005)
- 24: There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho (Jul 2, 2005)
- 25: echomikeromeo (Jul 2, 2005)
- 26: the_jon_m - bluesman of the parish (Jul 2, 2005)
- 27: DrMatt (Jul 3, 2005)
- 28: Reefgirl (Brunel Baby) (Jul 3, 2005)
- 29: echomikeromeo (Jul 3, 2005)
- 30: Cardi (Jul 5, 2005)
- 31: Reefgirl (Brunel Baby) (Jul 5, 2005)
- 32: There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho (Jul 5, 2005)
- 33: Fraggle (Jul 6, 2005)
- 34: There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho (Jul 6, 2005)
- 35: Fraggle (Jul 6, 2005)
- 36: Reefgirl (Brunel Baby) (Jul 6, 2005)
- 37: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Jul 6, 2005)
- 38: Smij - Formerly Jimster (Jul 6, 2005)
- 39: There is only one thing worse than being Gosho, and that is not being Gosho (Jul 6, 2005)
- 40: Emmily ~ Roses are red, Peas are green, My face is a laugh, But yours is a scream (Jul 6, 2005)
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