h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Az - I'm crying as I sit here typing this. I'm sorry for your pain.

Thank goodness for lovely people like your Jamaican man - and honest, caring doctors like your Canadian one.

Hey, you still here?

I didn't mean to make you cry, though of course I appreciate your compassion and caring.

The old abortion debate continues to come up in various guises, which is why I wrote this piece - so I wouldn't have to keep re-writing it each time I try to make my point that it is possible to have strong personal feelings about something without forcing your views onto anyone else. And especially anyone having to make such a difficult decision.

It really irks when religious fanatics call themselves 'pro-life' when they are so obviously and simply anti-abortion.

I am pro-life. They are not.

az

Dear az,
Your post moved me to tears also. Thank you for sharing such a difficult experience with us. What a wonderful soul the Jamaican has, I can feel it in your description. No one who has not made this choice or had this experience should ever have anything to say about it, ever. I personally went through the "abortion" procedure after I had a miscarriage and my uterus did not clean properly. Even though there was no one living there at the time, it was still a devastating experience. I can only imagine how it was for you. Again, thank you. And you are so right. Abortion opponents are not Pro-life.

Hi healingmagichands,

Thanks for stopping by and commenting.

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I reckon there are a fair number of anti-abortionists who had abortions themselves before they 'saw the light'. So I'd say that even women who *have* gone through this experience shouldn't push their opinions onto others, as I'm sure that no two women ever have the exact same experience.

And yeah, I did kinda lost my temper on that thread but I disagree with Della (as I so often do) that I was being 'hostile'. I wasn't going to post there at all but all that nonsense about being taught at school that abortion was a form of contraception just made me .

Over it now.

az

Well, really. Sometimes when we lose it and the plain unvarnished truth comes out. The issue, by its very nature, is a very volatile one. I have been an interested reader of the abortion thread on hootoo because it actually has intelligent, rational debate going on. Where I live, which is in the Ozarks of Missouri, commonly referred to as the buckle on the Bible Belt, the debate is usually about as rational as a pair of two year olds screaming "Are not!" "Are too" at each other, where the subject has been simplified to the chants "My body, my choice!" and "Life begins at conception. Abortion is murder!"

Well, I've been on h2g2 for over three years now and have taken part on many debate threads about abortion. At the beginning I always got way too emotional in the face of blatant ignorance and so-called moralists, usually religious types. Boy, had a few real fights with those types back then.

I remember being about 25 and walking to work - always had to pass by the Henry Morgantaler Clinic in Toronto. And it was always surrounded by moronic so-called pro-lifers waving photos of bloody foetuses in the faces of the women going into the clinic to have the procedure done. And even then that angered me so much! I wanted to yell at these idiots - 'oh, you are pro-life are you? Well why don't you get a life of your own and stop harrassing others?'

I never thought back then that I could ever opt for having an abortion myself, but I also knew many women who had, and I reckoned that was their individual choice. And I supported many friends who made this choice, helped them through, even though I kept thinking it wasn't something I'd ever be able to do.

And then - ha! Reality got to me. And there I was suddenly having to make this choice for myself. The hardest thing I ever had to do in my life. And you know, that just made me even more angry about all these self-righteous flickwits who think *they* have some sort of right to interfere.

So after several debates here on h2g2 I decided that I would just write my little guide entry, because I was tired of having to re-write and re-live all that. In fact, I haven't re-read the guide entry since I wrote it - I guess I still find it hard to read myself.

I lost all my joy of life that day. I have not been the same since. And I keep working on trying to feel good about myself, you know? Some days are better than others.

But THEN, to read such cr@p posted about 'abortion being taught as a form of contraception' and really, a lot of the other nonsense anti-abortionists post, well, it does make my blood boil. So probably better for me to stay out of those threads.

Being a US resident, don't you ever worry about the whole place going to hell in a handbasket? You've got the whacko fundamentalist Christian pres and all his cronies who seem to be waiting for The Rapture and doing their best to make it come asap.

Oops, sorry for the ramble. You see, this is why I no longer get involved on threads about abortion.

az

az,
I certainly DO worry about this country going straight to garbage. I often see our prez as a little puppet being run by all his cronies. I never used to believe in conspiracy theory or the Trilateral Commission, but now there are days when I wonder.

You would not believe the number of fundamentalists there are in this community. One of the reasons that Jim and I decided to move here when he retired from the Navy was we felt that the area needed some rational leavening, in addition to the fact that my folks lived out here. And actually, in the past 14 years I have seen quite a change happening. I mean, Molly Ivins' column is now printed in our daily newspaper. Just two years ago the syndicated column that was printed was a radical right tirade. So things "can" get better.

About you and your life and how it changed after your experience with abortion. You had a horrible choice: either terminate the pregnancy or risk death by hemorrage (however you spell that) and/or permanent damage. Plus, as I read your guide entry, there was no guarantee that you were going to have a healthy baby, and if it miscarried the miscarriage might kill you too. I don't get the sense that there has been a lot of counselling for you since then, and I believe that from what you say that you have never forgiven yourself for being the one to live -- it is called survivor's guilt, and is often suffered by people who by some chance survived some terrible natural disaster (like a tsunami) when other people did not. Your situation is complicated by the fact that in your case you actually made a conscious decision to survive at the expense of the other body involved.

I have known several women who had to exercise this choice. I may be making a leap here, but I get the idea that you may have some pagan/ new age thing going on? Well, I have been celebrating the circle of the year for over 20 years, and some of my friends who made the choice to have an abortion do this also. We spend quite a lot of time in meditation, doing trance work, and also listening to our guides, guardians, etc. etc. On more than one occasion, the woman involved was able to discuss the fact that she was planning on terminating her pregnancy with the soul who was wanting to occupy that physical manifestation that she was creating, and to explain to him/her why it was not possible at that time to finish the creation. These experiences make me believe that the soul and the body are not totally melded in the new manifestation until there is some sort of karmic commitment on the part of the mother to be.

I'm going way out on a limb here, but your description of your situation, and what made it so terribly poignant for me to read, was the sense that you did have some sort of karma connection with that baby to be, and not being able to fulfill that was very damaging to you. If you were where I could work with you, I would do a crystal healing with you so that you can mend that place in your energy body and soul that was so damaged by your experience. I do believe in reincarnation and past lives and karma, and I am here to tell you that just because you were not able to physically carry out your karmic desire does not mean that it will never happen, just not right now in this life.

Gee, we just met and now I'm getting all heavy on you. Anyway, when you forgive yourself for living, and forgive your body for being a traitor to you, you will be able to live a healthy lifestyle again and it will cease to be such an effort. God(dess) bless

No, nothing particularly pagan/new age about me, I reckon. But I do appreciate you 'going out on a limb' and taking such care in writing back.

Interesting idea about survivor's guilt. I'd never thought about that before. No, there was no councelling afterwards or since. But probably the main thing I can't forgive myself for is the ever-so-slight feeling of relief I felt - amongst all the pain and sadness - that I wouldn't actually have to go through with becoming a single mother (though I knew my boyfriend and his family would have helped out financially). I didn't understand where that slip of a feeling was coming from because I knew how much I had fallen in love with Sarah and how much I didn't want to let her go. And somehow I thought of myself as totally evil for even letting such a thought ever cross my mind - that I might be in any way relieved.

Curiously, I've only said that out loud to one other person - this afternoon to Noggin after reading this thread. I'd never been able to admit having that feeling to anyone before, but Nog didn't think it made me evil or horrible, just human. I hope he's right.

Meanwhile, I don't actually believe in reincarnation, past lives and all that - but I've also never felt like I'm terribly connected to here, if that makes any sense.

Well, getting late and I have an early start in the morning. So time for bed . . .

azzzzz

Noggin is right

I agree. Noggin is right.

I would become even more general than in my last post. Just forgive yourself, period. For surviving, for having that little fleeting feeling of relief, for getting into the bad situation in the first place, for being unable to carry your child to term.

Your feeling of relief sounds totally natural to me. Even though you loved and wanted Sarah and did not want to give her up, you were facing a very difficult time to raise her as a single mother even with support from your significant other of the time and his family. And even if they were prepared to be supportive for the 18 to 21 years it takes to raise a child (not a guarantee without the legal protection of marriage)(and not even then), you were also facing the possibility of a life threatening (for you) outcome to the pregnancy. Let us not forget, also, that back in your original post, you mentioned that the gynecologist you consulted also had told you that it was possible that Sarah would have difficulty developing in the womb due to your very large fibroids, maybe even being born with severe problems. So your momentary flash of relief certainly has many very rational and human reasons for existing.

Talk to Noggin some more. Let him help you work through some of this. Sounds like he is a beautiful and wise soul.

Also, BELIEVE him when he tells you you are not bad or evil, only a precious human.

Thanks guys.

I have to say that having this thread revived has brought back a whole whack of feelings - some of them not very pleasant - but it's also been kind of therapeutic. Especially as it opened up some good dialogue between me and Nog.

Yes, he is quite a wonderful and caring person. He also came up with an analogy for our thoughts, that they are like running water that cuts a channel and that once a channel is cut it often tends to run the same way unless you can find a way to divert it. Also that our basic temperament consists of 'harder and softer rock', which will get worn down by water flow at different rates.

I also realise that even though we have lots of different thoughts and feelings all the time, not all of them really 'belong' to us, if that makes sense. Some of them are actually just memories of what other people have said or experienced. So that fleeting feeling of relief I had doesn't necessarily mean it was *mine* in the sense of something I had actually wanted. And to be honest, at the time I was going through such a mess of mixed-up feelings that I reckon I can finally stop beating myself up for having that particular one. Though of course beating myself up is a personal hobby of mine.

Another thing is, since I wrote that guide entry - all in one go one afternoon - I've never gone back to re-read it, even though afterwards I thought it could probably do with a bit of editing. I guess I was a bit scared to read what I'd actually written, but I think I now might be able to take another look at it.

You know, I know lots of friends who have had abortions. And for a few of them the 'relief factor' was their main feeling about it all - no guilt or anything other negative stuff attached. They just knew it wasn't the right time for them to have a child and were happy that they could have a safe medical termination and carry on with their lives. And after my abortion I really envied them sometimes for their very practical and guilt-free outlook.

Heck, I remember one particular friend, just 19 and at university when she got pregnant, who told me she truly felt she could not go through with having a baby just then. She'd just left home, had got herself set up in a flat in Bristol and was looking forward to her future during and after university. But her main worry was that she would end up feeling all this horrible guilt stuff if she went ahead with the termination. And while I didn't want to influence her decision - which is a very personal one - I also told her that either doing or not doing something strictly 'out of guilt' was usually not a very positive way to make important decisions. And that the main important thing, if she finally decided on having a termination, was to never look back or ever blame herself or dwell on what 'might have been'. In the end she had the termination and later told me that my advice had helped her to do what she'd really wanted to do.

Funny how we can often give good advice to friends we love but not to ourselves. When I'm going through a particularly bad 'beating myself up' thing I sometimes say to myself - 'would you be saying this to ?' - and my response is always - 'oh gawd, no way, that would be horrible!'. Yet I say these things to myself. Curious.

Anyhow, thank you Teuchter and HMH for your very caring replies here. It really means a lot to me!

az

Our inner critic is nearly always the most harsh voice we hear.

The fact that you are revisiting these feelings and having dialog with Noggin is wonderful to hear. I predict that you will start feeling a lot better soon, and probably even start finding the energy to get out of your "Fat Suit" as well. I read somewhere that the fat suit is one way we punish ourselves for being "evil" or "bad" in some way. My fat suit is smaller than it was, but it still persists to an extent that I dislike. But I'm working on it.

I spent a pleasant hour a couple of days ago admiring Lua and Sunny and Azar on your cat gallery. I love cats. I could have a gallery too if I only had a scanner and hours and hours and hours to load pictures into it. Susan and CioCio were immortalized many times, such photogenic calico girls.

Oh, I hear ya about the FAT SUIT. I grew up quite obese, lost it all when I left home at age 15 and blossomed into a *gorgeous* teenager who then became very neurotic about every bit of food she ate. Later I substituted half-starving myself for exercising like a maniac - often two aerobics classes a day and morning runs in the park - and thus maintained my thin self.

Later in my 30's I stuck to running, as this was always my most favourite form of exercise and I'd think nothing of getting up an hour early just to get my morning run in. And then . . . the ol' back finally gave out. I've had a compressed disk in my lower back since my early 20's and also a wonky hip (not aligned properly) so about ten years ago I had to give up running.

I used to be more in touch with my body (before the op) and always knew two things. If I was putting on weight or suddenly found my fingernails were all chewed down, then I had emotional stuff to work on. But for one reason or another, I stopped paying attention.

Oh, so pleased to hear you took some time to admire my gatitos. Though to be honest, that gallery needs a bit of rearranging - must get down to it. If you're interested, stop by my blog and say hello there - the other day I started a 'gatitos, etc' post.

http://azahar.wordpress.com/

The first few pages of cat pics in the fotki gallery were painstakingly scanned and then uploaded. These days, since Nog and I bought a digital camera, it's a much easier process.

Would love to see some pics of Susan and CioCio.


az

I have a digital camera now, have for about two years. I LOVE IT -- love the instant gratification, love the fact I can take lots and lots of shots and see which ones turned out without having to pay big bucks for film and film developing etc.

The trouble is, Susan and CioCio were cats of the 80s - before digital. And they are both dead now. I have dozens and dozens of wnderful pics of them but they have to be converted to disk or scanned to use electronically. We have been wanting to get a scanner for a while, so maybe this will be the motivating factor. CioCio has been dead over ten years and I still miss her. She is buried in the yard and has a bird bath as a monument.

Is there anywhere you can go to do water aerobics? For people with hip back and knee issues this is a wonderful way to get exercised without impact. Also, they make these mini trampolines that you can bounce on that are wonderful low impact exercise. They have the added benefit that they are easy to store, you can use them in your house (where the air conditioning is) any time of the day or night. And they really exercise you, too.

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I think it makes a lot of sense, really. There're many ideas one automatically produces, or have heard before and replays, but there's this thing in you that actually holds them or lets them go. If an idea or feeling that flits thru your mind's not something you're not glad to have; then you simple don't have it, imo.

Hi AnarchistDuck,

Thanks for stopping by.

Yeah, this thread has really helped me to realise that thoughts and feelings are constantly 'flitting by' in our minds. I mean, I have always known this, but in this particular situation, with all the residual guilt stuff and also just the real pain of losing Sarah, I found it personally horrific that I'd even 'think' for a split second that there was any sense of relief involved. Now, thanks to the people on this thread, and thanks to Noggin, I finally feel able to give myself a bit of a break on that one.


Hi HMH,

Water aerobics? Are you mad? This would require me having to wear a bathing suit IN PUBLIC! And no way no day is *that* about to happen. But in fact, bought myself an exercise bike last year, which is not being used as much as it should be.

Meanwhile, from all my years taking aerobics classes in Toronto with a couple of friends who were not only aerobics instructors but also professional dancers, I know exactly what I can and cannot do. They were truly 'body experts' and spent a lot of extra time with me, because they knew about my back problems, showing me *exactly* how to hold my body while exercising, etc.

So the knowledge is there - what seems to be lacking is the personal motivation. I could easily ride the *dreaded bike* for half an hour to warm up, and then do another 15 minutes of small weights stuff for my upper body, then do another 15 minutes of 'mat work' on abs and legs. And it wouldn't cost me a penny. Perhaps you could give me a much-needed kick in the fat butt to get me going?

Though I reckon it's more about *me* feeling like I'm worth the effort - something I haven't felt for quite awhile.

Anyhow, this next week will be quite busy as we have a hootoo friend - zoomer - visiting with us. But after that . . . no more excuses.

az

I'll kick your butt if you'll kick mine!

Maybe we could be transatlantic "exercise buddies" and encourage each other. I get a lot of exercise around the place working the garden. Unfortunately it is not enough to counteract my penchant for cheese.

Of course, spending time on line getting mentally stimulated is good for my head but not so great for my spreading hips.

We had a carolina wren that built a nest on a shelf in 'S shop and they fledged yesterday. so innocent, so silly, so cute

Az, I am putting this on this thread rather than the abortion/catholic discussion web.
you said

Well, here we both are, knowing that the right thing to do is exercise our bodies and eat right, and we aren't really doing it or we wouldn't be in our little fat suits, would we?

When we talk about religion and morals, we can say things like "If you know the right thing to do and don't do it, then that makes us what?" To me the obvious answer to that is "hypocrites."

But when we talk about taking care of our bodies, I am not sure that not doing the right thing makes us a hypocrites, it makes us conflicted and uncaring about our physical beings.

Today I finished digging up the new garden bed I am planning for some hostas. And I have walked quite a bit around the place. Plus when I weighed I have lost one whole pound. So now I am drinking a beer having had a lovely margarita to celebrate the fact that I finished digging that bed and it is Sunday afternoon and it is 98 degrees Fahrenheit.

How's the weather in Seville??

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I think it also makes us hypocrites. To the extent that it affects our personal health and well-being. And especially because we *do* know how to do things better - but we just don't.

I mean, it's no huge mystery to me why I'm so FAT these days.

Anyhow, off on a two-day trip with fellow hootoo pal zoomer and Nog - will be back on Wednesday. And I have every intention of taking you up on your offer to do cross-Atlantic fitness stuff together, okay?

az

Okay, you're on. So far my record is I spent the last two days at the Presidential/Hillbilly Meet at Hypatia's, and did nothing more taxing than eat wonderful food and drink really good beer and play a couple of games of croquet and watch 2 hours of fireworks. So my week is off to a great start, fitness wise. (!)

Hope your trip was fun