h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I disagree. I think that the English are becoming more and more aware of their own flag and are becoming more conscious that it is separate from the Union Jack. A recent TV show ('3 Lions') about the English football team's progress since 1966 showed clearly that English football fans overwhelmingly used the Union Jack as their flag and not the St george's Cross. Compare that with nowadays where pubs in London (where I live) are festooned with the Red cross and not the UK flag.

Historically the English have not been very clear about the difference between British and English - they didn't need to be since they were dominant in these islands. The smaller British Isle groups though were acutely aware of their identity contrasted with their big neighbour.

I think that England is slowly becoming more aware of her own identity separate from the rest of the UK and I think this is positive. I only wish the English would become more aware of how often they appear to be the USA's dumber little brother, mimicking so many aspects of language and culture.

The problem with the flag being waved at football matches is that it will probably be used to do GBH to the opposing team's fans. I agree about the horrors of Americanisms but I believe that the beauty of real English will never fade. The Red Cross now flies proudly at this house, though I'm told it could require planning permission!!

Real English? Remember English has changed much over the years. Someone from your town in 800 AD would understand few words that you said and would be surprised that you called your language English.

There are 5 Americans speaking English to each UK subject and the World generally picks up their style of English. New words and phrases in international English tend to come from the USA not the UK. Wouldn't you say that English is now to all intents and purposes a language owned and determined by the USA?

No I certainly would not! English was growing and developing around the world before the Americas were discovered by the civilised nations. It's a language that was shaped by the many nations that invaded this island and were civilised by its people, so no upstart ex-colonials can claim any credit for its current form, only blame for the damage they've done it.

No I certainly would not! English was growing and developing around the world before the Americas were discovered by the civilised nations. It's a language that was shaped by the many nations that invaded this island and were civilised by its people, so no upstart ex-colonials can claim any credit for its current form, only blame for the damage they've done it.

I didn't say that the USA invented the language, simply that they NOW dominate it's use as a first language, the development of new words and phrases, and also the language styles of many English learners internationally (although to be fair many do specifically want to learn 'proper' UK English).
As for 'damage', as I pointed out languages are always changing. Our standard English is very different from even Shakespeare's. Should we put the damage right and speak like him? Or like Chaucer? Or King Alfred? Whatever you or I may think, the current and near future development of English is more influenced by the USA than the UK.

NOTE: this subject isn't directly related to St George's Flag. Perhaps there should be a new entry on international English?

You mentioned in one post that you 'might need planning permission' to put up the cross of St George.
For the record I think it is stupid that there are limits on people putting up their own national flags in the UK (I know there are some restrictions on the Red Dragon). We should have unlimited rights in this matter.

I am annoyed by your assumption that that our language should be annexed by America just because they've added a load of unnecessary phrases (Vertically challenged is still FAT however you 'dress it up') and confused generations of students by changing perfectly good spelling!! It's coloUr!!
There is a Forum for 'English' what I writ!!

If I admire the Americans for one thing, it's their sense of National pride. I'm sure they have an inalienable right to fly any flag they please! Any idea where I can get a 'Jolly Roger'?

The following is a small article that appeared in The Metro free newspaper on July 3rd 2000:

"ST GEORGE LOGO PUT TO THE SWORD
For 1,000 years, the red cross of St George has symbolised courage and valour. But the sight of yobs rioting at soccer's Euro 2000 while brandishing the flag appears to have turned it into a symbol of shame. Now Hackett, the upmarket clothing company, has ditched the red cross logo from its jumpers claiming it wanted to move away from 'large-logo' products. Chief executive Sven Gaede is said to have ordered the symbol to be phased out after seeing Euro 2000 riots on TV. Hackett initially used national pride as a selling point, telling customers that outfits emblazoned with the George Cross 'make for a very patriotic season'. Despite the St george connection, Hackett is owned by a Swiss firm".

It's sad that the flag's link to the more extreme links of English society affect how more normal English people can relate to it.

On the language issue, Mixer - please don't misunderstand me. I did not say that the Americans have a right to English in any way.

What I meant was that it seems to me that most changes in the English language worldwide seem to have been initiated in recent and current times by American culture and/or in the USA. What the future holds, who knows, but it seems likely to me that changes in English in the near future will continue to be dominated by the USA.

A personal example is that many people now say 'Have a nice day' to strangers, a phrase regarded as odd less than two decades ago. Similarly the use of 'cool' to denote hip or trendy died out in Britain a long time ago but the USA kept this usage and reintroduced it to the UK. I have noticed a greater use of US 'wrote me' instead of UK 'wrote to me' in recent times. British people now even occasionally refer to 'Movies' appearing in 'theatres' (But theatres with a UK spelling!).
International English contains all these terms and more.

On the other hand, how many British English phrases are being introduced to the USA?

It's not a question of who owns a language (no one can in any real sense anyway) but of who is influencing its development.

It's also a shame that any mention of English nationalism immediately brings forth cries of 'Racism' or 'Nazi'. We must be the only country in the world where national pride is derided.
I fully appreciate what you are saying on the language issue Huw, but that doesn't mean that I have to like what America is doing to our language. I can only hope that there are others who want to preserve 'Proper' English even if it's only as popular as Welsh is in Wales. I must apologise for a mistake in a previous posting, which you were polite enough not to mention. Vertically challenged is , of course, 'short' not 'fat'.