h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Never one to shy away from a shameless plug, time for some thermopylae! (currently writting the guide entery for it :D)

Basically whilst the Spartans were argueably the most devout of the greek city states, they revered there real life heros highly. Thermopylae, were 300 Spartans and a thousand or so allies held out against a huge Persian army, only happened because Leonidas was told by the oracle that either he and all his men would die at thermopylae, or greece would fall.

The Spartans held for around ten days, with the bulk of there allies retreating and heavy losses inflicted on the Persian force. The persians ended it by encircling the Spartans then killing them with arrows - being to afraid of the near invincible Spartans to charge in and finish them off. No Spartan ran or was taken prisoner.

Whilst the Persians did push into Greece they were stopped (sorry my memory gets hazzy here). However the legend of Leonidas continued.

The Spartans from then on never fled in battle or retreated, for any reason what so ever, even when it would have gained a tactical advantage. Its been noted that Spartan warriors would refuse direct orders to retreat, and messengers would refuse to take oders for withdrawl. This did however, lead to many many victories that could have been defeats. Although this way of fighting lead to the end of the Spartans, right till the end it was unheard of for a Spartan to be seen fleeing the battle, and Spartan women would tell then sons and husbands:
"Leave the field carrying your shield, or being bourne upon it"


And all because of the words of an oracle.

Are you writing an entry just on Thermopalyae? Because I was thinking of doing A Brief History of the Persian Wars, which would obvioulsy deal (in lss detail) with Thermopalyae. I could alwasy link to yours, I suppose.

iss detail?

The thermopylae is slowly turning into my nemesis ive been writting it for ages, with a spartan entery alongside it and hopefully if i can dig out enough info a spartan kings, and leonidas entery

if you haven't, i highly recommend you read a novel called 'Spartan', by Valerio Massimo Manfredi. Get yourself a copy and go off and read it- it's beautiful and will educate you and immerse you in the ancient Greek and Spartan culture.

bizarre choice of words there..

Ive been immersed in spartan culture for the past year as it were, but ill try and nab a copy

I think you need to be careful about this line you're taking on Thermopylae: it seems a bit simplistic. To take specific issue with some of your comments:

The battle didn't only happen because of an oracle and the reason Leonidas marched with only 300 men was both political and religious. Political because Sparta wanted to defend the Peloponnese at the Isthmus of Corinth and therefore held the bulk of the army in reserve. Religious because the Spartan way of life meant there were few real Spartans (marriage was only allowed within the ranks of the Spartiates). There's also the issue of the Olympic Games during which Greeks were not meant to fight.

And the other thing to bear in mind is that the 300 was just the number of Spartiates. They would have been accompanied by Perioikoi and Helots.

The oracle, by the way, said that Sparta would either lose a king or see her city in ruins (no mention of Greece). Herodotus certainly presents this as the reason that Leonidas stayed. The German historian Beloch notoriously suggested that it was all a mistake and Leonidas was incompetent. A more charitable account would be that every day and even every hour that the Persian army was delayed would mean more Athenian ships at sea (they were building as fast as they could).

The battle lasted only 3 days, not 10. Xerxes waited 4 days before sending his army against the defenders. This is sometimes attributed to his belief that they would surrender once they understood the hopelessness of their situation. More likely, he was waiting for the arrival of his fleet.

After burning Athens, the Persians were defeated at sea at Salamis. Xerxes sailed back to Persia, leaving Mardonius to lead the army home. He was defeated and killed at Plataea the following year.

As for what led to the decline of Sparta, that too is more complex than to say they never retreated. One factor was that Sparta had been a people quietly in decline almost from the beginning because the population could never expand. But it was the overextension of Agesilaus in the first half of the 4th century BC that led to a rapid decline and, when Thebes took the leading role in Greece after the Battle of Leuctra in 371BC, they freed the Helots on whom the Spartans depended.

"The battle didn't only happen because of an oracle and the reason Leonidas marched with only 300 men was both political and religious."
The three hundred were Leonidas' personal bodyguard - he had direct control of them no matter what.

"Religious because the Spartan way of life meant there were few real Spartans (marriage was only allowed within the ranks of the Spartiates)."
Spartiates - gah ugly term. There were roughly 10,000 homoioi at the time of thermopylae. Marrage wasnt a problem in the earlier years, but did become a problem (see below)

"And the other thing to bear in mind is that the 300 was just the number of Spartiates. They would have been accompanied by Perioikoi and Helots."
No Helots from Sparta went. They were joined however from troops from other states, but the lakonians that faught at Thermopylae were only Homoioi. I beleive the total force that stood and die on the tenth day was something like a thousand, maybe more/less id need to check.

"The oracle, by the way, said that Sparta would either lose a king or see her city in ruins (no mention of Greece)."
I beleive you are wrong there. As the 300 Spartans were Leonidas' bodyguard, they would have fought to the death no matter what, so the difference between King and Spartans in the oracles perdiction, whilst being a technical point and debatble between us, made very little difference. And i think the oracle said that the cities of greece would be in ruins, not just Sparta. However yet again this makes little difference. If Leonidas had given up the pass, then the Persians would not have feared the Homoioi and would of had no qualms about pushing towards Sparta after taking Greece. Do you really think if Xerxes had of been succesful that he would of attacked 9000 Spartans when his entire army couldnt beat 300?

Leonidas incomptetant? He was a Spartan Homoioi, and a king to boot. There was no such thing as incompetance in the ranks of Homoioi.

"The battle lasted only 3 days, not 10. Xerxes waited 4 days before sending his army against the defenders."
No he waited a week. He only attacked because he was being encircled and his army was fragmenting.

"As for what led to the decline of Sparta, that too is more complex than to say they never retreated. One factor was that Sparta had been a people quietly in decline almost from the beginning because the population could never expand."
No your wrong. If the Spartans had of retreated, they could of gone home to there wives and this problem of not being able to make more children could have been avoided. Instead more casualties resulted in less pure-born Homoioi, which in turn resulted in less children.
You cant keep building an army if it losses people to recruit.

Well, we're never going to agree on some of this and some of it I don't diaagree with and never said that I did! I still think you're taking a very simplistic and romantic view.

While Herodotus isn't always the most accurate of historians, he's the only source I know of who specifically mentions how long Xerxes waited and he says they attacked on the morning of the 5th day.

He also quotes the oracle (this is from the only translation I could find quickly on the web):

"O ye men who dwell in the streets of broad Lacedaemon!
Either your glorious town shall be sacked by the children of Perseus,
Or, in exchange, must all through the whole Laconian country
Mourn for the loss of a king, descendant of great Heracles."

And you may think Baluch is talking rubbish, but he's an interesting source nonetheless.

The oracle - Thats my mistake, i had thought the oracle said all of greece. Although by saying the king she is also condemming his own bodyguard.

I think you have to take stuff by herodotus with a pinch of salt when talking about the Spartans, as he was an Athenian.

And as for the simplistic look? Well i agree fully. The Spartans were a do or die people and whilst they had many facets the entire attitude and ideology of the Spartans came from the saying i quoted above, and the battle of Therompylae. The fact that a Spartan Homoioi would march onto the field of battle, and would only leave it either in victory or in death was literally that simple. Its why the Spartans were so feared, and any united greek force (such as that at Thermopylae) would nearly always be lead by a Spartan general. Who better to lead an army then a man who will stop at nothing until dead?

would it make sense to anyone if i said that the spartans were basically just a power-obsessed authoritarian state, and all that jazz about victory or death was because that's the way they'd been programmed?

Yes it would to a certain point.

The Spartans were effectively one giant military machine, comparable to the Roman Empire and even the Nazis (Hitler admired the Spartans and thermopyale, and eugenics could say to have been invented by the Spartans).

Yet the Spartans werent power mad as it were. They conquered there neighbours granted, and for the most part enslaved them, yet it wasnt until provoked did they push into the rest of Greece, and even then they exerted only nominal control over the other states - which led to the uprising.

Id say that the Spartans had the capablity to do what the Romans did - they just didnt want too. They were a very insular people protection home and nation.

Programming, or brainwashing, depends on the veiw point it is perceived from. Hitler admired there never say die attitude (strange as he shot himself), and the Romans undoubtably based the legion on the regime of the Spartans. To me, whilst the Spartans could be said to be brain washed, they were merely fighting for what they beleived in. They beleived in victory or death, and thats all that mattered to them.

the essence of power is containment: if the rest of the world knows how you win wars and maintain the stability of the state, they will undoubtedly learn from and destroy you.

what makes you think that the spartans believed in victory or death, anyway? if they did, why couldn't that have been programming? why couldn't sparta have been an ancient '1984'?

-- db

Spartans beleived in victory or death because of thermopylae. The nation as a whole looked, went wow thats bloody good those men are heros. Its the simple fact that an army that outnumbered them many times over and didnt attack them (they rained arrows instead) proves just how powerful they were. Not only that, but the Spartans didnt win the battle - they most certainly lost it. But from that single defeat and self sacrifice for beleifs (the oracles prediction, see above) they died.

It could quite possibly be that George Orwell looked at Spartan society and copied it. People were encouraged to spy on there neighbours, women had as much power and status as a man had in other states, there were slaves and many other similar things...

Yet look at the British army. The battle for Roukes drift was Thermopylae all over again. A superior skilled force, better equiped and trained, was surrounded and attacked by a large Zulu force. Yet they survived. 11 (IIRC) Victory Cross', argueably the highest medal for bravery across the world, were given out to the defenders. This, and many other victories has given Britain a Spartan attitude to warfare. Remember Winston Chruchills speech of 'We will fight them on the beeches... we will never surrender', made more poignent by the fact Churchill was prepared to use chemical weapons on the Germans if they got too far into Britain (see UKTV history is work watching). When a war is just an right the British people adopt this do or die attitude and dig in. The Spartans did it - just that they did it all the time

Victoria crosses*

i appologise for the error

Another factor why Sparta didn't like to send large forces out of the Peloponnese was that they were afraid of helot revolts and of course, were usually fighting Argos.