h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Much agreed.

-jb

Fascinating article on the rise of Creationism.

First some points for my friends across the pond that may not be aware of some finer points about America and her public school system:

1) By law, the American government cannot endorse or give prefrence to any religion at the expense of another. The often misunderstood "seperation of church and state" basicly forbids the establishment of a State Religion (so as there is a Church of England, there can never be without changing the 1st Amendment a Church of the USA).

1a) Anytime the Government seems to be doing something like this, the good people at the ACLU are usualy there trying to stop it.

1b)The ACLU stays pretty busy.

2)Most Americans are educated in the public school system. The public school system is an extension of the Government, therefore also bound by the seperation of Church and State.

Having said this, it is CLEAR that Creationism CAN NOT be taught in public schools, because of its Judeo-Christian bias, since it is based entirely on the account(S!) given in Genesis.

BUT there is an alternative in my view that WOULD allow Creationism taught in US public Schools: INSTRUCTION IN EVERY SINGLE CREATION MYTH KNOWN TO MAN.

That's right, right along "He whose name is unknown, but is represented by four Hebrew Letters (yod, he, vav, he)" we would have the myriad of Gods slaying one another, creating things out of the blood of the slain dieties, a bunch of gods and goddesses procreating in the most carnal of ways, and the arrival of ancestors from distant planets. Hell, I think we should PUSH for this, as it would certainly cheese off the Fundamentalists much more than just mere evolution.


Don't even get me started about the push to display the 10 Commandments in public schools....

-- ZenMondo

Just noticed something funny about one of the graphics in the New Scientist article. On the map that shows the countries that have one or more creationist organizations, the lower 48 show that they do, but Alaska shows that it does not. I guess they think our 49th state has either succeeded or has not yet been accepted into the union! teehee.

To both ZenMondo and jb the following:

I'm glad that you speak your minds. Exactly for THAT purpose I have asked for opinions, as you may have seen in the post from which ZenMondo quoted me. I already mentioned not wishing to divide the FFFF by one stupid statement.

Anyway I have included the phrase "which would otherwise unrightfully control our lives". Obviously not all deities will interfere with our daily lives as much as the christian god, so these will not be summarily dismissed by ALL of us, though maybe still by some such as me. In my opinion, that differentiation lies enclosed in the statement, but I'm prepared to take suggestions to rephrase, refine or strike sections to satisfy everyone.

Just to clarify so as not to be misunderstood: I'm not being hostile to your views, T. Mummy, I'm just a stickler for accuracy. The FFFF does NOT (AFAIK) renounce the existance of anything, but some of its MEMBERS do. If you want to advertise the FFFF (a good thing IMHO), I would suggesst something from the mission statement from the FFFF entry. My favorite being:

"To provide a place where non-Christians can gather together in comfort and relative security. "

Just being non-Christian does not neccisarily imply being athiest.

This actually leads me to a question about Atheism:

Can you still be an Athiest and believe in supernatural phenomona? Does being an Atheist prevent one from beleiving in anything not explained by Science? Should this be in one of the Atheism threads?

-- ZenMondo

You don't want to get *me* started on religion in public schools. This is something that really gets me, and I'm not sure how we can fix it.

My good colleague ZenMondo,

I don't suggest that you would be hostile to my views, I am only trying to get you to understand that I'm not hostile to other people's views either, and *therefor* am *asking* for *input*. Did I succeed in not making that clear *twice*? I must have a cryptographic day

In my first post I already mentioned my awareness of the fact that we are not all atheists, and that THAT's exactly why I *am* *asking* for *input*. That should have said it all.

Also, in reply to your earlier message I stated in my last post that my statement does *already* allow for exactly the exceptions you're referring to! But you must agree that we all distantiate ourselves, for various reasons, from the christian god at least (which is no different from renouncing it , either because we follow a different religion, or because we follow no religion at all).

Yet, as I *also* said before: "I AM OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS FOR REFINEMENT!"

So, whether you choose to overlook that fact or not, I *am* doing everything to make you understand that I do not wish to divide us in any way, and am *therefor* asking for input. (I hope I don't have to repeat this in every post, because that would become rather boring )

Please view my page first, and judge what you see there. That would make things much easier than to continue haggling here

As to your questions in the last paragraph: as an atheist, I myself can still believe in supernatural phenomenae, as long as they are not deemed sentient or conscious. I am still open to scientifically unexplained 'wonders', and such issues can most certainly brought up in the Atheism forum, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh absolutely, GR.

In my old school it had it's own chapel on the school grounds, and we were 'forced' to go there once a week and sings hymns, regardless of our Religious beliefs. I mean, that's just wrong and something that is really unparalleled in other areas of society. I was once actually threatened with detention for not singing along with one of the hymns - uh!! Apart from anything else, hymns are *so* depressing. At least with Gospel singers, they really are showing that their love for God and Life. C of E (my religious upbringing) hymns are just slow tedious droans where I think the meaning really has been lost over the years.

"Religion has no place in public school- just as facts have no place in organized religion." - Superintendent Chalmers, The Simpsons

LOL. (8(l) *

Very nice AA
I'm thinking that our school (Mine, in Western New York) is one of the success stories of the separation of Church and state, as any time that I can remember that anything remotely religious tried to find it's way into the school, it was always shot down by a horde of angry letters from the community. I think that JB can atest to this as he was part of the same school system. Also, over the last couple of years, it seems that the atheist population of the school district, and surrounding districts, has increased dramamtically.

More and more people are disillusioned. Organised religion is simply a money-making business. It has nothing to do with the soul.

The dutch system is much different. Public schools and 'closed' schools exist together.

But the public school approach may differ too. On some public schools 'religious studies' are mandatory, but then they have classes for each religion that is likely to be present. So, in a neighbourhood where a lot of moslims may be found, you can expect classes for koran-studies as well.

They must have some alternative program for atheist and agnostic pupils too ofcourse, and that's where they miss the point completely. Such programs mostly involve providing information on a wide range of available religions, in hopes that the child will "overcome its parents' shortcoming", and choose a Book to follow.

Non-religious persecution.

Hehehe...

Fortunately it's not that bad yet. You can attend those 'orientation classes' forever without ever making a choice, or you can go to a school where such studies are not done at all.

But the pressure to choose something is more than casual indeed. They want to be able to 'label' you for future insults, so to speak

Here in Canada, there are public schools and separate schools. Public schools have no religious affiliation, but students with parents who "believe" must attend Sunday school. (IF their parents make them) There they are taught bible stories. In the separate schools, of which i am a product, (raised R-Catholic), you took religion as a subject. Of course, it was only the RIGHT religion . We were also made to attend church (next door!) on a regular basis, while in school. Some of the teachers and the principal were nuns. They questioned us on our attendance at Sunday mass, and tried to shame us, in front of the class, if we hadn't gone. As soon as I was old enough, I gave up organised religion in favour of my own belief system.

Here in Oklahoma, religion in school is a hot button issue. And most of the local government is on the side of religion (at least it seems that way).

I personally never had a problem with it, the only religious thing I ever experienced in school that could even vaguely be called 'mandatory' was the pledge of alligence, which I stopped saying in high school.

The religious right want to change that though. Just recently a bill (or whatever they're called) was passed to include disclaimers in science textbooks that say that evolution is only a theory. I think this would make non christian parents take their children out of a school that had that in its textbooks, I know I would.

I think that has to do with a right-wing plot to destroy public schools. The governer here (asshole!) is a big supporter of vouchers. Vouchers are 'grants' that people would get to help pay for their children to go to private school if they take their child out of public schools. They would take the money for this directly from the public schools. The big problem with vouchers is that
1. private schools don't have to comply to government standards
2. private schools don't have to accept all children so handicapped and minority children would be stuck in the cut-rate public schools
3. these 'grants' don't even begin to cover all the tuition for good private schools
4. it's a way to use government money to fund religious schools

Vouchers are bad, bad, bad, bad news.

My dear T. Mummy,

Its not you, its all me. My first utterings with this crowd cased a small row, so I am just a bit careful about prefixing my words so as to be clear my intention is not to offend. So even when I disagree with you, I still like you.

And in this spirit of stil liking you even when I disagree... :

I don't think too many of us have abeef against the Christian God so much as we do his (mislead?) followers, that can make our lives a tad less pleasent by feeling like we have to be on the defensive when it comes to what we beleive.

Amen.

My heart goes out to you in the Bible Belt. You must have it far worse than I have it here in California. I think it was a cop-out of the Supreme Court somewhat to give such powers to local School Boards (which is odd for me, since I am pretty Jeffersonian when it comes to my ideas about democracy). The problem will be in communities such as yours, GreyRose, where there is a majority of people with these Agrresive Belief Systems, the minority view becomes unprotected.

Now if they need a disclaimer that Evolution is *merely* theory, I would start a push on something just as ridiculous. I would want a disclaimer in all science texts, that EXISTANCE is just a theory as well, since the only window to the universe we have is our own senses, there is no way to prove that you are just a solitary creature in the universe, and everything you sense is merely a delusion.

Hell if Evolution is "only" a theory, so would just about every other damn thing that is scientifcly demonstrable!

"Why don't we fly off the Earth?"
"Well its only a *theory*, but there is this *theoretical* force called gravity...." (and in religious schools, they would now insert that the REAL reason that there APPEARS to be gravity is because it is the will of God.)

As to vouchers, I personaly think they are a good idea, if only a transitory step to get the US govt OUT of the education business. There is nothing the US govt has ever done that could not be done better, and for less money if it was privatized. If I where given the opprotunity of a voucher program, my son would most likely be on his way to a Montosori school, or some other small school with an educational theory I agree with. As it is, our plan is to home-school him.

I think that, with the proliforation of computers, schooling will fall out of the hands of gov't altogether. A child will learn what he or she is truly interested in, not what the school system deems important. A child could also learn at their own pace, on their own hours. There are individuals who function better at night, at an early age.