h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yes, Uncle, that's where I am... I am not a creationist, tho' I am a Christian. Re the Bible - my view is: the Bible contains the word of God, but is not the word of God. (Wish I knew how to do emphasis here, to clarify.)

*Wonders where the line is being drawn between literalism, and dodgy theology*......

Why do you think my name's the Fish.........

For a fish to understand what dry land is like, is almost impossible... it can see it sometimes, it can even get near it.... But it can never walk on it, of pick it up, of smell it... know what it's like to run along it... or even to just lie on it...
My point being: how can we understand what God's like, when WE are living in a Goldfish bowl compared to him....

well the way i see it: the bible was written by men. look at it in context. maybe some had a little bit of insider knowledge, but its mostly full of the opinions of big jewish blokes from 2500 years ago, when they werent good at PC.

Like I said... a Goldfish bowl.....

The way "I" see it is this: God, being God n all and perfect etc..., made everything, and us. He also Maintains everything and us, without him we could not survive/exist... Everything that's GOOD, comes from God. God exists out of time/space/everything we understand as "the universe" matter and energy etc.... So God is on the outside of the bowl looking in, not only that, he keeps the goldfish bowl together, the water with just the right amount of air in, and the fish well fed.

Point being, If God's SO powerful he created the Universe, then why is it beyond his grasp or control. To so lead a mans life in what he thinks, says and does with this guy still having free will. So that the by product of this life/work is EXACTLY what God wanted him to right...??? Notice that Moses Pentatuke (sp.) Only has the bit's in it that make sound Theological points? Or the fact that, without twisting everything links to each other, and the ENTIRE point of the thing is all about Jesus....?! Surely God can use mans imperfections, to produce something perfect?

Ok?

nonono

as soon as you get God using you, you get determinism.

determinism precludes a good God:

how can a good GOd prescribe from before birth that one child will be the son of a millionaire and one will be born with leukemia in starving ethiopia?

One word. Reincarnation! (Yes, I am a Christian.)

Ahh, but what off God's just nature? Isn't he "fully loving" yet also "fully just". Justice would say that we all deserve to die, and to goto hell. Hell being a place where God isn't, so if we reject him, or don't bother to seek him, then why would he want us with him? Thus we all deserve to goto hell.... And it's only Grace which prevents that.

God doesn't want ANYONE to die, it was our choice, and we've goto live with it...

well i tend to agree and the same goes for all the other so called books of god.my point is about the grammatical evidence.for example if bible were to be the word of god then it should have been written in "first form" but mostly it refers to god as "him"or "he".why should god talk about himself as "he"only becoz it is the word of men who refer to him as "he".

What!??????

That makes about as much sense as a in full flight, leading the red arrows!

If say, "Micheal Schumacher" wanted "Me" to write a book about "Him"... "I" wouldn't write it with stupid grammar would I!??? And neither does the Bible! Where "God" is directly quoted, it always talks in the first person. But when "God" is being talked about, it uses the third person...... So I "REALLY" don't understand your question as it make absolutely no sense what so ever....

I mean, where in the Bible "DOES" God talk about himself as "he" as you claim....??? Please be specific, rather than just make generalistic accusations....

Just found this tread. I'm an atheist, but an openminded one, so I don't know to much about the bible. But the little I know suggest to me that it is history book instead of the word of god. And because it was written in a time when all(which was inexplicable)was refered to as an act of god it became his book.

Few other points I would like to raise.
In the example earlier about the kid that got shot despite his fathers prayers(post 35), what if he had to be there. Say because he lived there or to go to the hospital around the corner. Then was it his fault because he willingly walked into danger. And saying God didn't intervene because of the free choice of people. Who are we to say he did or did not intervene? The same goes for the example of the kid that got addopted by the parents who lost their child. If the kid wouldn't have prayed, it seems to me he still would have been adopted, simply because the parents had already made the desision when their child was terminaly ill and sure, I repeat sure,to dy. Was it devine intervention or just coincidence?

Another thing, I remember the bible saying that God created us after his image. Does that mean the desing had a flaw, after all humans are flawed(as the saying goes, to err is human(at least in Dutch)). But then God wouldn't be omnipotent. Or is God himself flawed?

One last thing. What about other religions. Who are we to decide which religion is the right on. I know I will get some answer here saying because of the bible and Jesus. But doesn't the same go for the islam with the coran and Mohamed, Budism and Buda etc. Isn't it a bit egocentric to assume you are right about something you can't possibly be sure of that you are right about it(as someone said, we are like goldfish in a fishbowl).

Rod

Well, there are a lot of doctrinaire replies to your questions, so I will try to avoid them. Firstly, although the Bible says God looks after us, it also makes it clear that this does not mean everything works out dandy - look at the whole history of the Jews, the early church, or even Jesus himself. Suffering and pain are inescapable in this Universe - why else would an instrument of torture and execution be the central symbol of the Christian faith? The core of the Christian message is that this world ahs gone wrong (we are meant to be like God, but we've gone our own way instead and somehow screwed up what we and the world were meant to be). Only by entering into the mess as one of us could God begin the process of putting it right.

What about other faiths? Truth is a light that shines everywhere, and I am not one to say that Mohammed or Buddha were preaching lies. Truth in some aspects is there in all faiths, but ultimately I have only found in Jesus the teachings and life that I can see really making the world different. Furthermore, He was the only one who addressed what I see as the central question of how we could be in a relationship with God - although its not just about me getting right with God, its about God sorting it all out.

The Bible is not the verbatim word of God. It is the record of people who have been impacted by God throughout history - so in that sense it is the Word of God because it records what God has said and done, but in a particular cultural context. Hence the need to deconteuxtalise through knowing history and sociology etc.

Of course, that is what I believe, and I accept that to get to this point has been a journey of faith. Intellectual approaches alone do not lead us to faith, but they are an important part of it

Besides which, Christianity is the only "Faith" not to be a religion...

Surely a religion has at it's centre, something that we must "do"... right? Where as with christianity, the "doing" has already been done, by the only one capable of "doing" it right; God. All christianity has is "accepting". That's it.

fish...your reply to my post was as incoherent as the one about God being a 'he'

justice wouldnt dictate that we all have to die. becuase God created us, he would have made us good. becuase a good ~God wouldnt have made us bad. so we would deserve to go o heaven.

the God of the bible i maintain is illogical.

My appologies Uncle Heavy,

...I'm not "that" good at typing what I'm thinking, and so it often comes out very garbled and without a flow. So sorry if I've not made sense...

My knowledge and experiance of what the "God of the Bible" is to the contrary, as far as I can tell it all makes perfect sense.

Surely Justice would. I mean, God "created us good", yes. But also with free will... Therefore if our freewill, opposed God's (which if he is good, can only therefore be good.) Then we have gone against the will of God (or rather gone against what is good). Which is therefore bad/evil/a sin...

And doesn't justice say that if you comit a crime, (like robbing a bank or killing someone)... You have to "pay" for it by going to prison/paying a fine/or even loosing your own life? Isn't this a fair assumption? Therefore, if "we" have gone against the will of God and done something wrong, we "owe" something in return? Like if you steal, they make you repay everything if not more... Isn't that Just?

So by God's standards everyone has done their own thing, and opposed him. If everyone has done other than "God's will" which again, must be good. We have therefore done what is bad, and have therefore "sinned" against God... So surely "Justice" would require something in return for this "wrong"....? Which the Bible say's is "Death"...

If that's not coherent let me know....

Are you saying that if one would live completely by God's will you wouldn't die? I'm sure that people can follow God completely with the free will he gave them. And they don't live for ever(even the Pope will die in time)
And isn't it a bit hypocritical of him to give us a free will but if we dare use it makes us oppose him. And He would punish us for this. Shouldn't he love and forgive us despite the free choices we make. Like a parent would love a child even if that child would do exactly what the parents want(like with studies, careerchoices etc).

I always thought that death in Christianity was to be seen as a reward, not so much a punisment, as one would, if he/she had led a good life,be readmitted to heaven and the prescense of God.
This raises another question for me. If one would lead a good life but doesn't believe in God would he/she be admitted to heaven when the time comes. It sais somewhere in the Bible(I think)that you only can get to heaven trough Jesus. But I know some people who are atheists but lead a 'better' life than some christians I know(or one at least as 'good'). Wouldn't it be unfair to alowe on to go to heaven, but not the other?

To posting 51: I can see the point you make about Christianity being the 'right' religion for you and there being (some)truth in all of them(If I may surmise it like this). But does this imply that all relions are(at it's core)the same and all the Gods are just different manifestations of one God. After all, Allah translates as God. Just my view(please don't be offended by the statement, just raising a question). And if there would be a God(personaly I'm as an atheist not sure)that would explain the existance of the different religions.

If I was a bit better at this old typing malarky I'd try and explain why all the different religions exist... I've got lots of notes somewhere around..... *goes off to look*...

My point about "sin" was that it doesn't matter how much good you do, because it'll never be enough. Surely it's just pure arrogance to assume we can "earn" our way into heaven.

At least for "me" and "what I've experienced" leads me to the logical conclusion that the "God of the Bible" exists, and that the rest of it is very true. The whole thing makes perfect sense (including the obscure bits) and following that, life in general makes sense. Besides which I have a "purpose" for existing, which is great ...

Its like something I heard the writer Phillipm Pullman saying - that within his limited frame of knoweldge and expereince he is convinced as an atheist, but accepts that outisde of his small circle of light, there may be a God about which he currently knows nothing.

My reply is the same but in reverse - my sphere of experience is minute - but in it I have seen that there is a God, and that He is the God about whom Jesus taught (and indeed, who Jesus was). I may be wrong in the totality of things, but what I have seen and heard sggests to me that I am probably am right. Besides which, with Him in my life, existence is all the more rich and wonderful than it was without Him.

'My point about "sin" was that it doesn't matter how much good you do, because it'll never be enough. Surely it's just pure arrogance to assume we can "earn" our way into heaven'

Why can't it be enough? Doesn't Jesus himself preach that trough him you can get deliverance(or whatever he calls it). Then isn't following him a way of 'earning' your way into heaven? And if you can never do enough good doen't that mean that doing good in the first place is pointless?? Sounds to me like it does. Makes doing good and life a bit pointless. Not to mention that it sounds like a very harsh and strict God. Isn't God also about love and understanding? Surely he will understand the good we do and see how much we can do. I like to believe that a human can, in the eyes of God(that is if He exists), earn his way into heaven. How will depend on the person, since say the president of the US has more power to do good than I do but he has also other duties(like protecting his country). But a person who can only do a little bit and does that little bit will surely be rewarded for it.

Religion does make life more full and colorfull for some people. But to me that is all it is. Something that can give a purpose to life. One of the reasons why I don't believe. I got enough color and purpose in my life(don't ask me to explain what that is), so I don't need religion to fill that gap for me. And that permits me to step outside it and see, what I consider, enough proof that God(whichever one)doesn't exist. I but also agree with what Phillip Pullman apparently said. I can't know all the secrets of the universe and if someone can give me real proof of God I'm willing to accept it

Well. I am a Christian, Rod - and I am bothered that some Christians have such a *harsh* God!

However, I know what they mean by saying that one can't 'earn' one's way into heaven - it is a gift, one must choose to accept. Where my views differ from those of some Christians, is that I tend to believe that God is more accepting and more patient than some of them think...

Hmmm...... I think I've been slightly misunderstood again....

As Della said, God IS loving and accepting, that's why he doesn't "not" accept us because we're not perfect. Rather that he does, throught grace, accept us. Mistakes and all... I mean, would God have more "love" for someone who does X amount of good, than for someone that's done Y amount of good??? That's just silly...
It's also a little silly to think that ANYONE could earn their way into heaven by doing good... Why? You ask... well, what if say "I" perform say 10 good things in my life..... and "you" perform 11 good things.... Where does God draw the line... Would he let you into his presence becasue of those 11 things, and not me... because I needed to do 1 more thing!??? That would be an increadibly unjust and mean God if he did....

What the Bible say's about it, is that NO-ONE can EVER do enough good to be of any value to God... BUT that God himself is SO good that HE has figured out a way for us to be with him. And that doing what is good, isn't what counts, it's having that relationship with God. Because from that, you'll want to do good things....

I'm sure people see things completely the other way round to how I do.... either that, or I'm living upside down!

I also DO agree that "religion is something to fill your life with"... Why? Becasue that's precisely what it is... Read James 1:27...
I'm trying to say that Christianity IS NOT a religion... and that it never set out to be one... "Religion" may come as a reult of Christianity... (meaning that doing something religiously, like helping widows and orphans). But that Christianity is NOT a product of Religion..... People may have turned it into one, but if you read the Bible, that is precisely what it ISN'T about...