h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Eggsactly Ben.
And tolerance, responsibility, self-control, dignity, respect for women...

Tut tut Mycroft, that was a cheap shot. I'm surprised at you.
Actually, if you care to open your eyes, I think you'll find that the mother (well, actually the grandmother) is the real power in most eastern societies.

... as, obviously, young western girls don't??

If that is true, than I am Napoleon Bonaparte.

I might be totally wrong, but this remark from Autumn Hughes feels like a racist statement to me. If the statement holds some truth, the reason should probably be sought for in the fact that eastern women are often still treated in a sexist way. If this is the case, then I prefer to be western and have less in common with older western men...

Does this makes sense?

-aargh! english!-

the (grand-)mother is the real power in eastern society IF she has given birth to some sons (at least one)! AND only after first leading a life (when being younger) as a humble, serving girl of the (grand-)mother.

mygod, Autumn Hughes, this IS insulting for modern women!

I don't agree at all! It's not because you are young, western and female, that you don't have respect for your elders, or that you don't have dignity or any of the other qualities you've mentioned...


h³

Stop!
No Flame wars!
Please?
No Flame wars!

*Running away and hiding behind the couch so those nasty flame-wars can't get me*

a scaredy-cat called Ben

Pleased to meet you Nappy (or do you prefer to be called Boney?)
I only calls em as I sees em.
And I'm sorry if you misconstrued "young". I meant anything under about 45.

"the (grand-)mother is the real power in eastern society IF she has given birth to some sons (at least one)! AND only after first leading a life (when being younger) as a humble, serving girl of the (grand-)mother."

You what???
Excuse me dear, but I really do think you should at least try to learn something about cultures other than your own before you try to deconstruct them. Did you learn that from Hollywood or is that what your schools actually teach?

Oh yes, by the way, I didn't make any distinction between young western females and young western males. I meant young westerners in general, but naturally, coming from a patriarchal society, you assumed sexism where none exists.
As indeed you see racism.

(To paraphrase Marvin: Racism? Don't talk to me about racism...)

Chill out sweetie. Let go of the millstone of political correctness and try not to be so touchy all the time.
That's one BIG thing that eastern women have in common with older western men.

"I might be totally wrong, but this remark from Autumn Hughes feels like a racist statement to me. If the statement holds some truth, the reason should probably be sought for in the fact that eastern women are often still treated in a sexist way..."

I think if you look at the proportion of women scientists, doctors, lawyers, chartered accountants, systems analysts etc who are "eastern" as opposed to "western" your preconceptions may get a rather nasty jolt.
But hey, never mind. Young western women don't need real equality. They can always prove their point by going out to a pub and get blind drunk, just like their male counterparts.

I'm sorry ***Ben, I didn't want to flame... I just sometimes adopt a rather agressive way of arguing, which I shouldn't... Anything that smells like sexism makes me rage. It's not The Way, I know. I'll try to put it more mildly from now on...

It's very hard not be touchy on the subject when you're young, female and scientist and constantly aware of that because of the reactions it brings you from the "outer world" (this means : eastern AND western, yes). -a lot of negative if not humiliating reactions, in fact, especially from anything older than 45 and male, thank you-
Let me be clear on this : it is NOT a sexist statement, just something I experienced quite often, unfortunately.

as for my - I admit, rather blunt- remark on the (grand-)mothers : it has got *nothing* to do with hollywood, but it has to do with history : this is the way it used to be in china for a very long time, and as far as I've learned so far every culture is linked to its history. And how come, if there are so many female chinese, indian, korean, japanese etc scientists and lawyers and all, I don't ever see one at a conference or a science meeting?

Let me assure you I'm not looking for equality, I'm looking for respect as well, which is obviously equally hard to find being a young western female.

Oh s**t!

Interesting and authoritative content mixed with slightly irritated personal comments. (Autumn, I know you care about what you said, and I found it fascinating, but how you said it may not have helped your case).

NO FLAMING, PLEASE - or I really will have to go home and lie down with a cold compress over my head.

Autumn, I am really interested by what you have said. I was raised by a particularly strong-minded but very traditional grandmother. As a result I have always known (1) that women are wiser and usually cleverer than men and (2) it is really dumb to let on about it.

I am 39, white and English, and have had very little exposure to other cultures and other societies. However I am working in mainland Europe now, and I am reading about different cultural theories and norms, and how differenc cultures react to things like hierarchy, individual responsibility, and stuff like that.

It can be difficult for us to accept that some of our dearly held beliefs stem from our culture and our upbringing, rather than from taking a rational view of the world around us.

For example - 'all right-thinking' Westerners now critisize the imperialism of the past, including the christian missions. But equally 'all right-thinking' Westerners beleive that Democracy is the ideal government and should be imported into all developing nations. What is the difference between the people who want to impose a particular political system on other nations, and the people who wanted to impose a particular strain of religious beleifs?

The point that I am making is that your culture is like a pair of coloured spectacles. It filters out a lot of what is in front of you.

PLEASE - NO FLAMING!

Keep cool.
Maintain a zen-like calm.
Respect everyone's right to their own personal history and opinions no matter how barking mad those opinions may be.

Pouring oil on troubled water (and hoping it is not petrol on flames)

an ignorant Brit called Ben

Probably for the same reason I hardly ever meet any intelligent, reasonable WASPs in RL any more (though I know you do exist) - wrong place at the wrong time. We should get out more

Autumn - who's never heard of an "eastern" wife-beater/rapist

Simulposting with Honey3
(How DO you do that nifty little cube sign?)

a creature of calm called Ben

No 'eastern' wife beaters or rapists?

'Let me take you by the hand
and walk you through the streets of London
I'll show you someting
That'll make you change your mind'

a simulposter called Ben

well, really simple in fact : the ³ is on my keyboard!
(takes away all the magic, doesn't it, a dry explanation like that!)

listen, I *know* that the culture you've always experienced is like a coulour filter, and I am aware of that. This simply doesn't help me to put aside things that feel like sexism to me. I also think it doesn't justify any sexist remark. I suppose I'm indeed just too young to understand (I'm 27)... On the other hand (to give an extreme example that might clarify what I mean): women get beat up, poisoned, raped and murdered for just being women and doing something men don't like, in certain parts of the world (this isn't hollywood either, I'm afraid...), like showing too much naked skin or walking on the streets just by theirselfs. This is not the middle ages, it *does* happen. Now, I *don't* want any one to misunderstand me and I will pick my words carefully : although these men are convinced it is the natural way to treat women, and it is a part of their religion and culture, that still doesn't mean I have to accept it, does it?

This does obviously NOT have anything to do with the above 'eastern'-'western' difference, but it is just an extreme example of how I find myself unable to agree with other cultural habbits, although I know I might find it a normal thing if I should have been born in that culture...

... I hope I didn't put it wrong this time, I really try but I can never put as much nuance in English as for those whose mother-language it is...


h³

BTW : what is a WASP?
(and i don't mean the yellow-black-striped little stinging creatures...)

h³

About respect for elders, let us just remember respect is earned not given.

White Anglo Saxon Protestant (like me, in fact).

Acually WASPs are Americans, and it is used to distinguish them from the Jews, Irish Catholics and other European immigrants to the US.

What IS your mother-tongue?
And why dont I have a diddy little 3 on my keyboard?
And where can Corinth find some nice friendly girls?

an elephant's child called Ben

Honey - Sexism as encountered in by most people in Western Society is best dealt with calmly and sensibly. The worst thing a woman can do is get vociferous and openly upset because then she is open to further ridicule and those being sexist feel their stereotypical assumptions are correct. Show through your actions that you are an equal and slowly you'll be treated as one. Fly off the handle shouting sexism and you'll get shot down in flames.

Sadly there are some areas of the world where sexism has a much more sinister meaning. I felt physically horrrified and upset when I saw the undercover filming of the Taliban's activities and treatment of women, it puts Western women's gripes about sexism into perspective. It is important to remember though that not every non-WASP culture is inherently sexist and that many people living (in fear) under the Taliban's rule do not agree with their enforced laws.

One final and important comment on sexism. Don't forget men. I noticed the comments made in an earlier post about domestic violence. Men are subject to domestic violence too but it is very rarely taken seriously, in fact men are ridiculed over it. For this reason it is very rarely reported. Male victims are also more likely to have suffered viscious attacks involving weapons than women who are more likely to be attacked by someone unarmed. This is just one example of discrimination against men.

I've ranted on. By point is (I think) that everyone should be treated and respected as an individual regardless of age, sex, race, culture, shoe size, etc.

deackie - a female, white, anglo-saxon atheist aged 24.

*feels that things are deteriorating again; that she is partly to blame; but still not sure why*

I'm sorry Ben. It was really rude of me to simulpost with you and then completely ignore you but the head of the household wanted to make a phone call and then the kids needed to be collected...

You are definitely not an 'ignorant Brit'. You always seem to be reasonable, well-informed and extremely nice.

What exactly IS a flame war?

An ignorant net-novice called Autumn, who now has to leave again to collect the lord and master

(Only cos it's raining and I feel sorry for the poor lamb)

Oh dear, I leave you people alone for a day and you go into another revolting digression! Before it was ageism and now it's sexism. I don't care for them and I care even less to discuss them. I think isms in general are a bad idea.
But I have news for you!
It seems the dam has broken, two days after my date with the Indian lass I spoke of earlier, I chanced to meet another nice, friendly girl. I was riding the ferry and happened to catch the eye of a sweet honey blonde wearing sunglasses. Did she smile? It was hard to tell, and harder to tell if she was smiling at me throuh those sunglasses. Perhaps she was smiling at the dashing lad behind me? I resolved to keep glancing at her, and, if she smiled again, to go over to her and introduce myself. I didn't have to wait long.
I sat down beside her and she told me her name and we chatted for the remainder of the passage. She gave me her phone number, and told me to call.
So it would seem that, in addition to being an old pervert, I'm now also a ladykiller. Lovely.

Someone asked me to give my age in a range. That would be 40-80.

Perhaps that same someone asked what it is I'm looking for in a girl besides youth. I seek the following, Beauty, Intelligence, Humor, Grace, Elegance, and Glamour. The usual stuff, in fact, and stuff that is present in women of all ages, which is why I didn't feel the need to specify it. Oh, what the hell, let't toss in Kindness and Compassion, too.

ok, ill just comment on the sexism thing and then shut up, run, and hide under a rock. it was a good point that deackie made about eastern cultures and abuse/sexism. as far as i have read, in alot of areas of Afganistan, women arent even allowed a secondary education; and i do remember reading about a woman who was beaten to death for showing her hand outside of a window while taking in laundry.i'm afraid it does seem to put the issue in persepective for me. east, west; what does it matter where it is happening or in what culture?

*sprints for cover*

oh, btw, corinth.. you go

That's because the Taliban is, like, totally ruining Islam for everybody else.

Thank you. I go indeed, we'll see where exactly I end up.