h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

ChanI just read this in today's Grauniad: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1486394,00.html

To summarise...a peace protestor has been electronically tagged and issued with a curfew to prevent her from taking part in any further illegal protest activities. The judge rejected a call for an ASBO. (Note for USAnians and others: An Anti-Social Behaviour Order is a recent device whereby restritions can be placed on those commiting a low-level persistent nuisance. They require a lower standard of evidence than for other punishable offences - but breaking an ASBO is automatically a criminal offence and often means jail.)

I'm not concerned with the rights or wrongs of her anti-war opinions here. My concern is in the application of measures (tagging, curfew) which were initially intended to control petty crime. The current vogue in the UK is to talk about 'yob culture': one newspaper story about hoodies and baseball caps and it suddenly becomes the main topic of the Queen's Speech (USAnians etc: where the government lays out its legislative programme for the year). But are all these things in danger of being mis-used in order to give a generally more compliant society?

I also noticed that an attempt had been made to prosecute her for racial abuse. The racial abuse laws are relatively new and are well intentioned: they were aimed at attacking a genuine problem. But in this case, the 'abuse' was dragging an American flag across the ground.

Given all of the above...what confidence can we have that the proposed ID card scheme will not be abused? Even if we assume (hypothetically!) that the current government can be trusted - should we not be on our guard against any measures which might be abused by future, less trustworthy regimes? After all - our constitution isn't worth the paper it's written on!

(oops. Delete 'Chan' at the start.)

Right this is IMHO a cynical mis-use of powers and reflects everything I have come to hate about "modern" british government.

I am not going to single out this one, the Major one was the same and I rather suspect that a Howard one would have been the same as well.



Part of the problem I think is that rather than having a wish wash liberal consensus on "Crime or Non comformist Behavior" as the opposition (The Daily Hate Mail) would have us belive there is a general consensus among coward politicians of "'Angins too good for em" insofar as then can get away with it.

I tihnk the biggest let down of the Blair government was not actually getting at all tough on "the causes of crime". Better to spend the money on stupid stuuf the DHM and stupid suburban little englanders will like than actually tackly the underlying causes of these problems.

It aslo makes me very worried about the Govt. Getting say "Biometric" data about me. What happens if the just "decide" to use it in a different way like the ABSO or the Tag? Yeah sod it lets sell all this DNA to some medical company.

Really?!?!?!?

To me this is very much a sign of times changing ~ when i lived in Harrogate we all largely ignored Menwith Hill ~ even the protest types never went up there.

Electronic tagging and curfews are supposed to stop people from commiting crimes which affect the community or endanger others.
What exactly do they think it will achieve in this case beyond making her a public martyr.
She does not appear to be a danger to the community at large and whatever you think of her beliefs or methods ~ the freedom to protest freely is not something which should be threatened in this way.
I have enough trouble trusting most politicians as it is,the idea that they can use this kind of regulation to curb free speech and protest is very disturbing.
I wonder if they'll try this approach on any of the remaining Fairford protestors who have yet to be tried.

However having said all that.....

I have been on lots of protest marches in my time, being a trouble maker.

And you almost always get some "D*ckheads" who are just there trying to cause trouble. Who activly goad the police ect... Whilst I dont know the circumstances mayby this person is one of them.

Wellll....I haven't met any violent Quakers myself...

And on the 'Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime':

This seems to have mutated into 'Crime is caused by bad people...so let's be tough on them!'

Is this what we understood the slogan to mean at the time?

I do think the scariest bit is the idea that they even thought about charging her with racist abuse for dragging the US flag along the ground.
I mean the charges might have been dropped but that would have been a terriber precedent.
She does seem to be a professional protester but the charges don't seem to indicate she's violent.

I'm sure you meant 'persistent' rather than 'professional'. I doubt that anyone pays people to do that sort of thing (at least, not since the days of Ghadaffi's Gold) - plus the article says she's a health visitor.

Sorry ~ bad english due to lack of sleep and being
I don't suppose she was working much during her Greenham days though.

The lady in question was interviewed by Johnnie Walker on last night's Drivetime, Radio 2. She is a Vicar's wife and sounded perfectly reasonable and principled. Her objections are that the USAsian site has nothing whatsoever to do with Britain. It is part of the wacky star wars defence system, that (a) doesn't work (b) doesn't protect Britain even if it did work and (c) makes us a target. The court case is being appealed so she is free and presently un-tagged.

Slightly wandering off topic ~ but when i went to high school near there our physics teacher also used to teach part time up at Menwith.
After much discussion with the scientists and military types;his advice was;that in the event of Menwith ever being targeted we should go outside,figure out which way the wind was blowing and then drive like hell in the opposite direction.

Or...if you wanted a quicker and less agonising end...drive straight towards it.

Getting back to 'yob culture' and the control of society...can all the nations ills really be attributed to 'bad people' or lack of respect?Are we all so post-socialist that we no longer believe that societal forces have any influence and it's all down to individual behaviour?

The problem with individual behaviour is that you rely on individual standards to modify that behaviour. Now if you have been brought, or dragged, up to know all your rights and none of your responsibilities your personal controls are going to be pretty weak and take no account of societal standards or consideration for others. If society has no internal controls then they must be imposed from outside agencies such as the law. Otherwise society breaks down.

I don't think this is the case here as the lady in question, I think, was acting from conscience for the good of the community

>can all the nations ills really be attributed to 'bad people' or lack of respect?Are we all so post-socialist that we no longer believe that societal forces have any influence and it's all down to individual behaviour?<

Can a USAian butt in and comment?

Over here it's almost the opposite, sometimes: some kind of "breakdown" in society is held responsible for most of our nation's ills and individual behavior seems, in many cases, to actually be "excused".

Meaning that oftentimes, when a crime has been committed, the person is seen as a victim of circumstance, a product of his/her environment, and therefore basically unaccountable for his/her behavior.

Obviously, I think the truth is probably nearly always somewhere in the middle.

Sorry for nosing in with my . I'll butt out now.

This is certainly the impression given. But is society really in such freefall? Or...is the concentration on all these measures for controlling individual behaviour a diversion?

Shouldn't the government be dealing with the more structural issues within society? In happy, free, comfortable, egalitarian societies, people aren't anti-social. Are they?

Isn't there a danger that the force needed to order society by controlling its individual members inherently open to abuse?

Psychocandy -

That's maybe not entirely true about the US, is it? After all, it notoriously has one of the largest prison populations in some of the most horrendous conditions in the world.

Difficult. Sometimes opposites are both true.

Yes but even open, free, egalitarian socities have codes of behaviour that have evolved in order that the society can function to everybody's satisfaction.

Let me give you an example from my past. If you work on an ocean going vessel you have to share a pretty small world with maybe 20 or 30 men and women where everybody works around the clock. At most times somebody will be sleeping while others are relaxing or working. To ensure that the society 'works' there are unpsoken rules about consideration for others. Nobody would dream of playing loud music if it could disturb your neighbour. If you do you are quickly reminded that you yourself may need to sleep when the other guy wants to maybe play his music.

What is happening with our me me me society is a disregard for others and we get into a dog eat dog downwards spiral.

Okay, I'll agree that there is a certain loss of civility in society today...people rushing about, always wanting to be first in line, etc.

But does that mean that someone who is a protester should be treated as a criminal? (Whether you agree with her or not...to be honest, I do. The missile defense system is an old Reaganite non-starter being rehashed by folks who haven't a clue).

Doesn't that smack of rather Orwellian tactics? And even if the charge has been dropped, to even think of accusing her of racist acts for dragging the US flag on the ground! Hello! Are the judges in a vacuum? We have way too many racial problems of our own on this side of the pond to say that being an American is a racial category!

>That's maybe not entirely true about the US, is it? After all, it notoriously has one of the largest prison populations in some of the most horrendous conditions in the world.<

Of course that's not nearly always true, I didn't mean to imply it was and tried to emphasize that I only perceive it as happening some of the time.

It's quite common on a smaller scale too, down to disciplining children (parents or teachers). Parents have been charged with abuse for merely spanking a child. That does little to foster an attitude of personal responsibility, IMO.

I like WanderingAlbatross's example. It's true that consideration for others is seriously lacking in society as a whole. Heck, I live upstairs from people who insist on getting into scraming matches in the middle of the night, out on the landing outside *my* door, so they won't wake their children.

I'm not a religious person, but I do think that the old adage "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" is a wise one. It would certainly make the world a more peaceful and pleasant place.