h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Yeh, its that* bit, I don't really get either. Sure some prostitutes are being 'forced' to work in near slavery conditions; so we ban prostitution.... I don't get why:
We've had, in the UK at least, plenty of storeys reportded in the news of overseas workers effectively working here as slaves, in industrys from cockle picking to farming and building.. Do we outlaw farming and the building trade? (I'll aloow an arguement to outlaw Estate Agents, but that is antoher matter )
More and more as we're in the UK forced to hear the preaching gosapal of the New Labour gov, peple seem to slowely be actually believing the utter rubbish they spout, whereby a single instance, isolated case, minisule evidence etc., can be used as a justification for evocking widespread and wideranging policy and law that does nothing to address any real issue and everything to effect those who are doing perfectly legal, laudable, or private things to which the govn shoudln't really be needing to interfer... Its all about control. Control peoples actions, control their thoughts, control their sex.

I don't care what you do - though the control freaks do - I don't care if you pay a woman for having sex with you - unless that is how she earns her living.

Incidently cockle picking virtually is slavery, standing knee deep in freezing water, gettting paid less than minimum wage for back breaking work.

Here's a couple of links regarding prostitution and slavery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7026018.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7383484.stm

McKay if you're not going to answer the question do the decent thing and just say you donw want to, OK?

I havent satated the assumption that you're objection is grounded in religious mumbo jumbo because I havent jumped to that conclusion and even if I did it matter not one bit.

Putting aside your undisclosed moral objections, which are meaningless to the debate unless you expand on them what you do want to go into some detail about is trafficking and you have been told quite unequivocally that legalisation can reduce peripheral illegal activity and that increased legislation without effective detterents does the opposite.

The simple factis that we have more trafficked sex slaves (not prostitutes) than we have for quite some time possibly ever. this is not because of weaker laws but because of cheaper transport amongst other tings.




I dont pretend to know the ins and outs of everyones sexual predilictions I know people who have used prostitutes and Im happy to call a number of them friends, I know plenty of other men who'd be disgusted at the thought of "paying for it" who I wouldnt piss on if they were on fire soley for their attitudes AND actions towards women.

Your unellaborated moral pronoiuncements aside paying for sex or being payed for sex isnt the lowest action a person can take. (Personally I wont put money in the pocket of a man who colludes with dictators and opressess in the censorship of the worlds largest population news. Doint that would make me feel dirty if I had no other option or outlet for my carnal desires Id pay for sex though.)


Rather than helping people the moral grandstanding by politicians to win the votes of closed minded people like yourself is almost certainly going to see to it that people who choose to sell sexual services (not themselves as you like to put it) remains one that is appealing as a target for a large violent criminals looking to exploit people unfairly cast as moral degenerates by those who cant see any further than their own blinkered moral opinions will allow.

Im under no illusions prostituion is a a grubby, violent, nasty business and given its legal status is obviously a setting for all sorts of criminals, but it doe not have to be like that. Despite differing moral attitudes downt he ages and differeing legal approaches it remains with us, now nor ever will preaching and pronouncement about moral ever change that and neither will wilful misuse of the language to acheive emotional leverage change the fact that most people are slaves having to work to put a roof over their heads and food in their bellies

You and people like you dont like prostituition and that's your call, but why make things for people who find that to be the best choice open to them, and lets face it its a shit one, harder than they nee to be?

one love

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I think the defining feature of slavery is coercion. But someone who chooses (they must if they get all the money) to be a prostitute... erm, isn't a slave, surely?

Incidently cockle picking virtually is slavery, standing knee deep in freezing water, gettting paid less than minimum wage for back breaking work.

-- exactly what I was saying. read the retoric. Just because that is vertually* slavery... by one definition, just because some bosses and company managers are arseholes... no need to ban all buisnesses of the same ilk... when most will be well within the law and morality for that matter.

I'm saying Blicky that I consider selling ones body to be morally wrong.

I consider it twice as morally wrong for someone else to make money out of someone selling their body.

I also consider a lot of other things morally wrong - most of the banking industry for a start - but some things in life have to be tolerated - even if you don't like them.

So I don't buy cockles, I pick or grow my own fruit and veg as much as possible, and I don't approve of prostitutes.

You are not the only person who has experience of prostitutes, I've met several junkies who sold themselves to pay for their habit, and a seemingly respectable woman who sold her body to provide for her children. (And to get her own back on an abusive husband)

My stance is that it is wrong - and good reasons don't make it right.

Pedro - "
I think the defining feature of slavery is coercion. But someone who chooses (they must if they get all the money) to be a prostitute... erm, isn't a slave, surely?"

I'd say that one can be coerced by circumstances or environment as much as by another person.

If a child is born in slavery it knows no other life and moves into life as a slave as its lot. Poverty can force people into work they despise - as can drugs. It doesn't have to be people.

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I don't really get this. Nobody denies coercion in the illegal industry of prostitution etc. But you seem to be denying even the *possibility* of someone choosing to be a prostitute.

Why they would choose it may be a different matter. I'd imagine that it would be the least worst option, rather than anything positive. But I've spent the last 4 years working part-time in a call centre, at quite a cost to my studies, because that was also the least worst option (ie, better than grinding poverty). If I'd chosen to work as a lap-dancer* for half the time and earning twice the money, that would have been a better option financially for me, as well as giving me more time to study.

It might be the downsides outweighed the positives, but that's unlikely for *every* women freely making the decision.


<< ..I consider selling ones body to be morally wrong.

..I also consider a lot of other things morally wrong - most of the banking industry for a start - but some things in life have to be tolerated - even if you don't like them.>>


It seems to me that, for you, there is something fundamentally different with sex, which is something that me, blicky, 2legs and SWL don't really get. Would you mind explaining that?







*very unlikely for at least 2 reasons

We w**k because we have to.

A few people are lucky enough to have a job they love and enjoy and find fulfilling.

So the rest of us - not born rich - have to choose what we will do to provide for ourselves.

We also have to balance this against the lifestyle we choose.

So if I want to run a classic Rolls Royce there are going to have to be playoffs made against other choice areas - including what I do for a living.

So you have chosen to w**k in a call-centre, whilst you study for something you want to do.

Not everyone has the talent or the luck to achieve what they want to do - writer, musician, actor. They usually choose a second way of earning money.

Somewhere in all this lifestyle balancing we settle on a choice of things we won't do. I know someone who chose to try to finance his gambling habit through begging - he was gaining abouot £50 a day and losing it in the bookies. That - for me - was a morally unacceptable choice, I stopped drinking with him, and considered shopping him to the police, because I felt he was 'stealing' from people's good will. He did not understand my feelings - his moral compass did not work the way mine does.

So I wouldn't say anything if I saw someone shoplifting in Tesco's but I might if it was in the corner shop - we choose our morality.

For me the ultimate in degradation would be performing a sex act with a stranger, for money. I suppose I just can't understand how it could be less for someone else.

We all see people make bad choices, smoking, drugs, fast cars, designer suits, and watch them work long hours, or take two jobs to pay for them. There is a quicker way to get their money - they could mug old ladies - that's relatively safe - but they don't, because of thier own morality, or fear of the consequences. For me, prostitution is too easy a choice to get money for drugs or whatever, because there are too many people prepared to take advantage of someone dowm on their luck. And I'm sorry to say, too many people who are prepared to let people who've made bad choices be taken advantage of.

A friend of mine pulled a girl. Mine was the closest place to the club we were in so it was all back to mine, this included her markedly less attractive friend.

My friend was very keen to get better acquainted with his new friend while I did my best to keep her mate entertained. She eventually got bored and wanted to go home and was insisting that her irend go with her. My friend gave me the wink and I took one or the team.

Now I didnt feel dirty or used the next day. I had sex with a stranger, used protection and ....what exactly....I felt no different to when I was keeping her engaged in conversation from when I was engaging her in a...lets call it physical communication.

McKay you keep saying that its a moral issue but what are the ideas that support your moral outlook?



Its ironic you use acting as a profession that people might go into because it was once considered immoral for women to be actresses. I wonder why you think one is morally acceptable but not the other?

one love

Blicky - if its any consolation, the girl felt exactly the same way.

No wonder you see nothing wrong with prostitution.

Why do you all have so many problems with morality ? Doing what is right without taking advantage of other people.

Yes, when I was younger had sex with girls who meant nothing to me, just because I wanted sex. Now I'm older I recognise I was using them to gratify my needs - and think less of myself for it.

At least I didn't add insult to imjury by offering them money as well !

Its a bit of a leap to say someone has a 'problem with morality' just because they disagree with your version of it.

I mean, I don't have any definitive opinion on this issue myself, just don't know enough really. Still, I can see the point the others are putting: is there something about prostitutes that makes them especially more exploited than people in other extremely bad jobs, or is it just that you think its icky?

The reason I see nothing wrong with people selling sex is because I grew up in an area where people didnt bother to hide it away and pretend it was dirty.

It was a rough area and I saw women providing for their kids the best way they could manage (in their minds atleast). I saw pimps controlling other women and saw a lot of women on the run from abusive husbands. I learnt that the clear moral lines people like you like to pretned are there really dont exist.

I grew up without that false morality of the kind you like to display. If you were expressing with any deceny you'd acknowledge our diferences in morality not deny that of others or claim I have a problem with it. Read my journal and see what I did regarding a "saucy" callendar for the women's team I coach. We need to think about things and not just assume that what we like or see as right is the only way to go.

When you stop insisting that your morals are the only one that count we might have a conversation going.




"At least I didn't add insult to imjury by offering them money as well !

You really dont have much idea about the whole business do you? There are gold-diggers and free loaders who will quite willingly put-out and marry men who they otherwise wouldnt be interested in if they didnt have a big enough bank balance, but that's OK, moral and respectable because they are so different to prostitutes because of legality and monogamy, but those are the only differences and essential the outcome is the same.

It would be insulting to offer cash to such women as they like to create a bubble of respectability about their sale of themselves and I call it sale because they are selling themselves wholesale not merely offering a sexual service.





"Yes, when I was younger had sex with girls who meant nothing to me, just because I wanted sex. Now I'm older I recognise I was using them to gratify my needs - and think less of myself for it.

I have sex with women or a number of reasons hopefully the other person involved shares the same aims as I do but if they dont its not beause I havent made them clear enough up front.

That's why I dont eel bad about any o the stuf Ive done, sorry I just dont subscribe to your false morality.


one love

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I assume you mean sacred here, not sanctimonious. It's only an "idiotic" notion to the 10% of people who campaign against religion. It's not like tennis for goodness' sake! (I note it's overwhelmingly men who make nasty remarks about sex just being "scratching an itch" Use your hands, then. and don't involve another human being in your problems!
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So is murder, so you think we should just go "beh, what can you do", about that?

<< If someone supports the outlawing of prostitution then they should realistically accept that they are responsible for the problems that go with it (which I mention in point one) which are magnified by its illegality and admit that, since prostitution will never go away, they are arguing a case that ensures these things will perpetuate. Beating fists on the ground and screaming "the world shouldn't be like this!" doesn't change anything.>>

Apply that logic to murder and see how far it gets you.


It's legal here, and one of the results is that schools cannot complain if a brothel is established literally next door, with the result that school girls are accosted and verbally abused. Wonderful for men with problems, hell for the rest of us.

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Insane! Truly.

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McKay!

>I find it unlikely that all customers would be sexually attractive.<


This is the bit I really agree with...

>><>

Insane! Truly.<<

Why is that insane? Given what little you know of my personality through our interactions, do you think I'd be suited to working for a Catholic group?

I gave the Jobcentre a legitimate reason why I didn't want to take that particular job and they were fine with it. Credit where credit's due.

It's not like I'm one of these people who's perpetually on the dole - I was claiming benefits for 6 weeks, in which time I was travelling the length and breadth of the UK applying and interviewing for jobs. I took the first job that was offered to me.

Everyone is sexually attractive, EVERYONE!

Not all of us to everyone, but as the saying goes, "there is a cork for every bottle"


<>

So is murder, so you think we should just go "beh, what can you do", about that?

So is breathing and people tripping over on the pavement what separates these two things and prostitution is that people want to do them.

People want to walk on pavements, breathe and (pay to/be paid for) having sex. While there are a lot of people who want to commit murder there are many more who dont want to be murdered. So sensible people side with the people who want to do things that dont harm other people and let them get on with their lives even though some of those people want to walk on pavements late at night when the risk of tripping is much higher or breath in smoke they know is laced with carinogens.

So in short they let other people get on with their lives and dont try to tell other adults what is right and wrong. except if they want to be part of a finacial exchange for sex.

What miserable control freaks such people are!



<< If someone supports the outlawing of prostitution then they should realistically accept that they are responsible for the problems that go with it (which I mention in point one) which are magnified by its illegality and admit that, since prostitution will never go away, they are arguing a case that ensures these things will perpetuate. Beating fists on the ground and screaming "the world shouldn't be like this!" doesn't change anything.>>

Apply that logic to murder and see how far it gets you.


As Ive explained there are differences in the consequences and mechanisms of different activities. The rise of the mob in the US was done largely to prohibition. People want to drink booze there are those that would like to see it outlawed but anyone with a grain of sense and the slightest grip on reality can see that its easier to enforce sensible limits on alcohol consumption and let people live within limits that they are willing to accept.

So many people think that murder should be outlawed that we have more of a problem if it were allowed. With prostitution some many people want it outlawed and we still have huge problems...this make me think its time we re-thought our approach.


"It's legal here, and one of the results is that schools cannot complain if a brothel is established literally next door, with the result that school girls are accosted and verbally abused. Wonderful for men with problems, hell for the rest of us.

Its illegal here but we still have much the same problems as you. Like Ive said I know people who have often paid for sex and they are fine people i know peolpe who abhor the thought of paying for it and are rude ignorant brutes to women.

A current problem here is that gangs target girls in care and from poor families to entice them to work as prostitutes. If there were less of a market to be exploited because of state sanctioned brothels then this would not be such a problem IMO but its something that will continue to happen as most men assume that paying for sex is illegal anyway and yet they do it. This tinkering with the law if anything will make things worse because they men who force women into prostitution will push them harder to keep the revenue up even if the number of clients falls because there are less men in the market for sex. Junkies who will do anything to earn the money for a fix will take more risks to earn their money.

Instead we could have state monitored brothels with support no hand for coerced women, free health screening and more importantly security for women from people who might do them harm.

What we have now is a cottage industry forced underground for no good reason at all except the mean attitudes of those willing to *try* and deny other adults a choice, but fail and only compund the misery of other adults when they wont admit the utter failure of their attempts to stamp out the worlds oldest profession and the only one where women own the means of production.

one love