h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

If I might open a

what do we suppose would be the marvelous panoply of reactions if this had been an imam in Leeds standing up after Friday prayers and suggesting to his congregation that breaking particular laws enacted by Parliament would by perfectly acceptable?

Sorry, I don't know the man, but I'm with Flying Ants on this one: religious leaders preaching, in a place that pretty much resembles a democracy, that criminal activity is religiously acceptable should be considered criminal activity itself.

Are there not incitement laws in the UK?

I've just read the transcript. My opinion is changed. The vicar is not only inciting criminal activity from the pulpit, he is also a pretty shabby thinker:


'They could beg. But how many of us, good Christian people that we are, give constantly and generously to ex prisoners waiting for benefits? And *****the likelihood is that, found begging, they will quickly be in trouble with the police, and therefore in breach of their parole. ******'

so, he's worried about the person getting in trouble with the police for begging. (is panhandling illegal in the UK?)

and yet, he not worried about the person getting in trouble with the police for theft.

'Instead, I would rather that they shoplift. My advice, as a Christian priest, is to shoplift. '


Not only is his advice criminal, his argument is asinine.

In this case, he's telling people that stealing from supermarkets is preferable to stealing from people, people's homes, or small businesses if you find yourself with no legal ways to feed yourself. It's hardly an encouragement to anarchy.

Sorry, simulpost. I think the idea is that begging won't actually solve the problem, but might get you into trouble, while shoplifting might still get you into trouble if you're caught, but will work if you're not. He's excluding begging from realistic options because it isn't an effective solution.

Well, I don't know about panhandling not being a viable option. I'm familiar with a number of regular panhandlers who also do what I call 'gleaning' -- following a carefully planned route which allows them to snag the bottles before the recycling truck comes along and they make a bit of a profit at the bottle depot. Of course, this town probably isn't the same as the good Vicar's -- our winter nights only drop to -45 Celsius and the cold season only lasts about nine months. I don't buy the suggestion that panhandling is not a more viable option than shoplifting. I don't buy his sermon at all.

Rather than calling on the poor in his parish to a life of crime, he should be exhorting the rich -- including the very chain stores he suggests be robbed -- to fill through charity the gaps in the safety net of his society.

It's a very poor sermon even without the call to crime.

Anhaga: "Rather than calling on the poor in his parish to a life of crime, he should be exhorting the rich -- including the very chain stores he suggests be robbed -- to fill through charity the gaps in the safety net of his society."

Father Tim: "Let my words not be misrepresented as a simplistic call for people to shoplift. The observation that shoplifting is the best option that some people are left with is a grim indictment of who we are. Rather, this is a call for our society no longer to treat its most vulnerable people with indifference and contempt. [...]
People of God at St. Lawrence’s, Advent is at its height. Prepare for the coming of Christ, for Christmas is almost upon us. But don't let your preparations be limited to tinsel and turkey, crackers, fairy lights and chocolates. Prepare for Christ by singing his mother's song, and taking her words to heart. Don't just sing about lifting up the lowly: help with the lifting!"

I'm not seeing the disparity.

I see you have chosen to ignore my request, Runescribe.Until you show some degree of willingness to address exactly what I have written, I see no point in discussing this with you further. I've been down this road too many times with people who choose disingenuous slipperiness, smoke and mirrors in debate, to bother further.

anhaga what really gets me is that this person's opinion is even considered worth reporting. What relevance does it have? Actually I can imagine that an imman's opinion might be more newsworthy because so many Muslims are still practising believers, and it might be thought he could be influential. But some Christian priest in the UK? Nah. It's probably just some silly season Christmas story because there's not much news about, apart from the bloody snow

My apologies, Flying Ants. In my irritation, I responded to you as if you were 3Dots, who made the unjust coments about theocracies and dictatorships.

No, his words are not a simplistic call for people to shoplift -- although it is a simplistic sermon. Yes, he backpedals a bit to cover his butt, however, the fact is that he simplistically suggests not only that shoplifting is the best option in that nasty society you have over there, but that *as a minister of Christ* he would advise people to commit crime. Again, I ask you, Runescribe, could an imam get away with such talk from the pulpit in your country? Would you defend such an imam?

There is of course the possibility that Father Tim subscribes to the scripturally well-founded theory that Jesus was crucified for incitement to horse thieving: http://www.flamewarrior.com/horsethief.htm

"Could an imam get away with such talk from the pulpit in your country? Would you defend such an imam?"

Goos questions. I don't think an imam would be recieved kindly, partly for the same reasons this sermon wasn't, but mostly because we have a terrible problem in this country of equating 'of a faith that is not Christian' with 'foreigner' and hating and fearing 'foreign' people. Any suggestion that 'foreigners' don't like or aren't conforming to our laws and customs will provoke unwarranted backlash.

As for me personally, I'd like to think that I'd feel the same about this sermon if it was given by an imam. (For the record, I think that it points out a real problem with our support mechanisms, but the point would be better made without the shock-value of advising people to shoplift.) I predict, however, that I wouldn't actually take in the argument because of my own reflexive racism, and that shames me.

Runescribe:

'we have a terrible problem in this country of equating 'of a faith that is not Christian' with 'foreigner' and hating and fearing 'foreign' people. Any suggestion that 'foreigners' don't like or aren't conforming to our laws and customs will provoke unwarranted backlash.'

I'm glad that doesn't seem to be a particular problem here.


'I think that it points out a real problem with our support mechanisms, but the point would be better made without the shock-value of advising people to shoplift.'

I certainly agree that it would be better without the stupid shock tactic, and I expect you're right about the gaps in your country's support mechanisms. I also think the sermon would be much better if he'd left out the unveiled request for an increase in his salary. There are so many ways it could have been improved, but, the fact is that whatever else he says in the sermon, he does offer religious sanction for a criminal act.

I'd like to express my appreciation of anhaga's comment about weather conditions: >>our winter nights only drop to -45 Celsius and the cold season only lasts about nine months.<<



You may now return to the debate about moral relativism

I can see the legal problem with giving religious sanction to an illegal act, but I think it can be morally justified if the law puts a person in an untenable situation. That said, 'untenable' isn't the same as 'inconvenient', and I think it's imperative to follow the law as far as possible.

Heck, I'm an unbeliever, as well as an admitted moral relativist, so you'll not be getting an argument from me.

You must admit there's a bit of irony here...

All religious people would want everyone to live in a theocracy...that's the whole point of believing in a god and doing what that god wants.

I don't want to live in a theocracy.

a slight change of subject:

a while ago I posted somewhere around here about the church up the road that had a sign out front which seemed to say 'special prayer for the sick theist': http://public.fotki.com/anhaga/fun_stuff/sicktheist.html

last night I noticed that the same church has a sign out front that reads, in part:

'Sun Worship 10 am' but it doesn't say which day of the week they worship the sun at 10 am.

They also offer lessons in English as a second language.

Well, their first language seems to be gibberish.

Gibberish? No, that's called 'speaking in tongues'