h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I watch with horror the UKIP massive success at the European elections.

What bugs me is; that as a pro European have am I at fault along with those ewho share my position of not stating the pro european case strongly enough?

Yes, what *is* the pro-European case?

Me, I'm delighted with the result, as it slams the brakes on the adoption of the European constitution. I have no problem what-so-ever with free trade unions and the like across Europe. I do have a problem with giving up my nation's sovereignty and currency to, lets be blunt about this, a bunch of foreigners.

What do you men by strength? More strident tones? More skilful rhetoric? More astute logic?

Humm I think perhaps the pro Europeans have thought that the argument as being one that's already been won. All the major parties are pro European, in previous elections the UKIP have been seen as a bunch of nutters. After all the Conservatives went into the 2001 election with an anti european agenda and did badly.

Sorry about the awfull cop out, but I am hell pissed post the England result and I feel I had better post my por -europe (minus France) retort tomoz when I am a little bit more compos-mentus.

Upset about the French result? But surely, they're our European brothers; should we not all be celebrating together.



Sorry about that. I couldn't resist...

Couldn't find a whole lot of info about the UKIP at BBC News... anyone care to fill me in about them?

Ah yes, UKIP. NOw, let me get this straight, this is a single-issue party campaigning on a promise to withdraw the UK from the European Union and...

And do what exactly? Sit here in splendid isolation, I assume, roast dinner of a Sunday, reading the Daily Mail in God's own land. Well, fine: if the British electorate think that's a good idea then so be it. Then we don't have to give up our currency (because, let's face it, this is largely about currency and what could be more British than that? "The Queen's own pound, brings a tear to me eye guvnor" etc.). But, er, we haven't had to give up our currency. Euro's been going for four years and here we are, no closer to joining, doesn't seem to have done an awful lot of harm, economy seems pretty healthy.

All right, forget about the currency for a minute. What about this constitution? See, what's going to happen there is a bunch of foreigners is going to swallow us up into a big superstate and we're all going to have to talk German and salute Jacques Chirac when he comes on telly and stop calling carrots vegetables and give up the Great British ounce ("gor, tears, there I go again")

Except that's not going to happen either. Nobody wants the superstate. Nobody. No politicians, no peoples (be they ne'er so foreign), no scheming eurocrats tucked away in the grey corridors of Brussels. NOBODY wants it. So it's not going to happen. If it ever did happen, then that's the time to declare 'independence'. But it's not going to happen. Because nobody wants it. Ever met anybody who wanted it?

Still, the whole thing is definitely rather distasteful. I mean, what's happening is that, at present, we're governed by a bunch of unaccountable smarmy incompetents in Westminster and what they (they?) want is to get us governed by a bunch of unaccountable smarmy incompetents in Brussels instead. Which is a huge difference. Further away, right?

Except that, in fact, the European incompetents have vastly more checks and balances preventing them from mucking everything up than do the British incompetents. Moreover, as of tomorrow, Brussels is going to be stuffed with eurosceptics all demanding more power devolved back to the nation states (because other European countries have backward-looking reactionaries as well apparently, though ours are obviously inherently superior - indeed, so superior that they are intending not to turn up, because that's really going to help).

In the end, tonight's election results make me despair, simply because they seem to me to be a triumph for ignorance and fear. And not ignorance of other countries necessarily, so much as a basic and profound ignorance of history.

If we do leave the European Union, can I claim asylum in France?

Your point being what exactly

That UKIP are a pack of cretinous reactionaries, reaping the harvest of twenty-five years of neurotic xenophobia (for which the Conservative party has only itself to blame) and pandering only to the worst instincts of the ill-educated and underinformed.

Ah.

To some extent I'd probably agree with you there.

I would never consider voting for UKIP in a general or local election. The purpose of my vote for them in this European election, and I suspect many of the others who voted the same, was to say that we're not happy with the progress of closer integration in Europe.

The reason being that no-one has come forward and explained exactly what this integration is for.

What is the benefit to the man on the street of Milan in having a say in the affairs of, say, someone in Dublin.

It's a simple enough request, yet no politician has come close to giving me a straight answer.

I'm interested to hear you say you wouldn't vote for them in national elections - the exit polls seem to suggest you're in a majority in that respect, which does lower my blood pressure slightly.

But if you're not happy with the progress of closer integration in Europe, wouldn't it be preferable to have MEP's going to Brussels and putting that case? I mean, that seems to be the way things are going anyway - for a party to declare openly that its MEP's won't even be bothering to turn up with any regularity seems horribly futile to me.

>>What is the benefit to the man on the street of Milan in having a say in the affairs of, say, someone in Dublin<<

Why is this different from someone in Surbiton having a say in the affairs of someone in Newcastle? Where Europe seems to me to represent an advance on this model is that the man in Dublin not only has recourse to the parliament in Europe, but to the parliament in Dublin as well - local, then national, then European: what's the problem? As long as these various tiers of government are all ultimately accountable to the same electors, it seems to me to be a phantom constantly to position Europe as 'elsewhere' - we are Europe, whether we like it or not. It's just widening the extension of democracy: even leaving everything else out of the picture, since it is our largest market, Europe is a factor in everyday life in Britain and it would continue to be whether we were in the EU or not. Personally, I'd prefer to be part of that process, having at least some say in how it goes, as opposed to standing outside it, pretending to be independent but actually anything but.

the simplest case for closer european union and against ukip et al is british steel.

america put massive subsidies on american manufacture, and massive penalties on imports.

there is absolutely no way that tony blair (or any other national leader) could go along and say "excuse me mr president, would you mind reversing that and putting thousands of people out of work in your country, because it is costing hundreds of jobs in mine".

however the 25 member states of europe could get together and say "play nice willingly, or we will add punitive tarifs to your most profitable trade goods".

in fact, that is exactly what happened, with the result that america will have to do something about it's steel industy's inefficiency.

or how about the policing of international rapists and murderers? interpol is a similar type of organisation, but set up to help fight crime, rather than fighing protectionist trading policies.

People here (and elsewhere) have claimed that it is the "blame europe, but we take the credit" policies which let ukip in, but bbc coverage of the european elections made it plain that this attitude was common across the eu. as was a complete lack of understanding on the part of a lot of the electorate of exactly what europe does.

As a significant fraction of all national legislation is now directly related to european legislation, we can no longer afford for this to continue.

We will have to have politicians from all parties across the entire union deciding to grow up and start behaving like adults, rather than putting out statements about europe which nobody (including them) believes to be true.

and they wonder why people don't trust politicians

Why should a woman in Bremen have a vote on issues the effect actions in Birmingham?

Well we all do live on teh same , dont we?

The greatest amount of power is exercised by a group of largely white middle class, middle aged men in suits in London. Under Europe a group of white middle aged men in suits...... in Brussels, or Berlin or Strausborg. Does it matter?

Grey desk seems to think the fact that they might be overwhelmingly foreign matters. Well how exactly?

I think it was in Hartlepool that people hung a chimp believeing him to be a Spanish sailor. They were awaiting a an invasion and a ship carrying circus animals crashed on the rocks. In their ignorance the people of Hartlepool hung the chimp, well he spoke a strange language so he was probably a spy.

Is this the same prejudiced "logic" we are using against the EU "they are foriegn and thats bad"




We, the UK, are at present at risk of terrirst attacks, young British men and women are risking life and limb and killing other people daily trying to bring peace stability aand democracy to other countries. The decision to do this was made in London against the wishes of the greater part of Europe.

Countries who are queueing up to join the EU are asking what changes they have to make to join. No troops necessary, no fighting no worriy about a terrorist back-lash.

But people vote for that old racist Kilroy, UKIP is just a more media-friendly version of the BNP.

one love

"Ah yes, UKIP. NOw, let me get this straight, this is a single-issue party campaigning on a promise to withdraw the UK from the European Union and..."

and apparently be able to do this from seats on Hull and Derby City Councils. Tehir sole issue is to leave the EU, so they stand in local elections, and people *vote* for them. Strange.

Oh, and the Hartlepool monkey was believed to be French, not Spanish.

Allow me to quote from the UKIP Derby branch's election literature:

'[The candidate] offers a new start for the people he lives and works amongst in a move to bring commonsense to the way our City is run.'

'Independents brought sense to traffic calming in Bolton and Sinfin. Now allied to a national party we are poised to move on to bigger and better things for the City at large.'

'[W]e can set an example that will help this City to start achieving its full potential, free from rocketing Council Taxes and the petty minded bickering that we all know goes hand in hand with local politics.'

'Together we can do something about it... be it from the European Union, from Brussels, from Westminster or from our own City Council House.'

'THE UK INDEPENDENCE PARTY will seek to !!!

1. End the COUNCIL TAX FIASCO.
2. Teach all the children Discipline and Responsibility.
3. Free-up the Road System.
4. Repair the Pavements & Street Lights.
5. Look after the Old Folk.
6. Cut Debt and Borrowing.
7. Deal with Anti-Social Thuggery.
8. Advocate Responsibility before Rights.'

Some single issue party.

Well, maybe they should have mentioned some of that in their party election broadcast, or on television and radio interviews. Certainly ewould have made thems eem more rational then that PEB with the comedy Austraian being slapped witha wet fish.