h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

It would appear , from authoritative Muslim souces that 61% of Mosques do not allow women inside.

That idiot, Kilroy Silk was pressing for Govt action on this point.

To an extent he is right , not so that Muslim women should be forced to attend mosque, but that, to prevent them having the opportunity is breach of the Discrimination Laws in this country.

Interestingly , the Muslin lady who was speaking was calling for the leaders of the mosques to be 'educated' in Islamic beliefs' which are directly against this practice. IF KS is to be believed the mosques are run by a Board of Governors which in th 61% cases at least, bans muslim women from holding a position on the Board, or having any active part in running the mosque.

Perhaps not unlike some 'Christian' organisations ! But enlightening in view of some of our recent debates?

Novo

Well, I wouldn't call MPACUK "authoritative", but they certainly have some bolshy women who are stirring things up.

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/3092/39/

An interview with the women who made a recent documentary on the subject. Interesting comments below the podcast. Including "This thing about equality between women and men is a western concept. This is a weapon used to destroy our way of life."

Oh absolutely "brother". I have repeatedly posted that women's rights will be the key to dragging Islam into the 21st Century.

Does anyone know if this has anything to do with the extent that the Whabbhist (forgive spelling mistakes) branch of Islam is promoted in this country via the considerable economic clout of Saudi Arabia?

Well, it's estimated that over 80% of Mosques, madrassas and "Islamic Centres" in the UK receive Saudi funding.

I thought religions were exempt from sex discrimination law?

Only for the next 21 months?

Novo

Not sure about that.
I understand there were specific exemptions in sex discrimination law to do with religion.

The sexual orientation law regarding provision of services doesn't exist at all yet. When it does, it will have only some temporary exemptions, yet to be properly defined.

Existing sexual orientation law covering *employment* seems to have narrow religious exemptions,and it certainly used to be the case that sex-discrimination law had such exemptions, though I'm not sure if it still does.

When it comes to gender, though I can't track down the specific wording, I was under the impression that religions are allowed to segregate worshippers, etc.

The legislation:

----
[edited for clarity]
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/sr/sr2006/20060439.htm#16

a) if it is necessary to comply with the doctrine of the organisation; or
(b) so as to avoid conflicting with the strongly held religious convictions of a significant number of the religions followers.

[then a religious group is entitled...]

(a) to restrict membership of the organisation;
(b) to restrict participation in activities undertaken by the organisation or on its behalf or under its auspices;
(c) to restrict the provision of goods, facilities and services in the course of activities undertaken by the organisation or on its behalf or under its auspices; or
(d) to restrict the use or disposal of premises owned or controlled by the organisation
-----

So I'd say that any religion can decide who it does or does not want to let into its holy places and services. So it wouldn't be illegal for a Mosque to forbid women from entering if doing so would be against the doctrine of the Mosque.

But I am very surprised at the figure of 61% - I didn't know that any Mosques didn't allow women inside. I thought they were just segregated - although it would be interesting to know whether being in a neighbouring room or hall in the same building was classed as being in a Mosque. I've gone a bit of regooglesearch, and it seems as if there is a significant debate within Islam about women in Mosques.

Hi Potholer,

I am sure you are right that segregation is permissable. But it is barring from that we are referring to, rather than participation in another part of the building.

It is on that basis that I would class it as Sex Discrimination. I understand that it is a cultural/religious position, in which an 'old' ideology rules, hopefully for the present only.

Novo

>>"It is on that basis that I would class it as Sex Discrimination. I understand that it is a cultural/religious position, in which an 'old' ideology rules, hopefully for the present only."

*I'd* class segregation as sex discrimination as well. However, I didn't write the law, or argue for the exemptions that exist.
If people really don't like a religion, they can always go and invent their own new one with rules that please them. After all, that's how all the *existing* ones came about.

As a first reaction, anything the odious s**t Kilroy-Silk proposes seems worth distrusting on principle, and then approaching rather cautiously. The odds on him doing something to benefit anyone more than himself seem pretty small.

PS
Novo, any chance on giving a *reference* to your authoritative Muslim sources, rather than a second-hand report of what they claim?

The is a very simple - if slightly crazy - logic to why Moslem women pray separately from the men. Two of the 15 mosques that I have designed and built were specifically for women, and I did take the trouble to ask 'why?'.
It is the way that they pray. Kneeling on the floor with you posterior in the air can be distracting to the average Arab male, especially if the person in front happens to be a nubile young maiden. Hence, the women always pray behind the men - on the assumption that they will not be distracted by the sight of male backsides. In my experience of over 30 years in Arab countries - this is dubious logic - but there it is.

Adib explained on another thread that it was osmething to do with child care and not distracting others from praying or something....

Has Adib been on site much recently?

Potholer, there's a link in post 2 that gives a podcast from a Muslim source quoting the 60%.

PedanticBarSteward, who makes money from having the women in separate mosques? Who supplies the financing to build the Mosques?

Cheap shot Arnie

Who supplied the money to build the churches?

Not as cheap as yours or his.

So Pedantic, why don't you answer my question for a change? You answer first.

Really Arnie? What do you regard as cheap shots so far? Posting a link to the figures? Calling for Muslim women to exert the same rights as other women in the West? Explaining why women, (when they're allowed in) are segregated from the men?

It is much - much more complicated and requires a book to answer the question properly. If you read the 'books' you might begin to understand 'why,'. One thing though - fundamentalism of any sort, is evil.