h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

>>"Control the education, teach kids together that we are all of equal value and, within a generation or two, the bulk of such hatred and misunderstandings will dissipate."

I don't disagree with that. However, while one has state-funded religious schools at all, one has a hard time saying there can't be Muslim ones, or even that there can't be any more of *any* faith, which amounts to about the same thing.
What do you think the best way of prising schools away from all religions would be?
I guess some mandatory relaxation of entrance requirements might be a stealth way, but could take some time, and only works where other people actually want their children to attend.

With a faith school, which faith *wouldn't* like to be in charge of their own inspection if they thought they could get away with it?

Well, I've consistently argued against faith schools in any shape or form so I would hope my position is established. School is for facts, not dogma.

Incidentally, the point you made earlier about who is responsible for the rise in anti-Semitic attacks was covered extensively in another thread. The conclusion seemed to be that they are *not* carried out by people who are taught from an early age to hate Jews, but by right-wingers.

Only in the Forum

>>"The conclusion seemed to be that they are *not* carried out by people who are taught from an early age to hate Jews, but by right-wingers."

I wonder what fraction of right-winger who happen to be racists simply come upon their position in adult life, and how that compares with people getting into extreme religion in their teens?

I'd got the impression that at least some of the British suicide bombers were pretty integrated and easy-going when young, and became radicalised somewhat later on.
I'm not sure I heard of any of them being schooled in extremism from a young age, though I'd have thought I would have done if it had happened.

There's an argument that religion laid the groundwork for group differences that people may have expanded on later, but that's an argument against religions full stop, not religious schools, or state-funded religious schools.

Arguably, though I'm not in favour of them, there's a case for state-funding Muslim schools in order to have *more* control over them.

Which is the same case I put forward for state funding of Mosques

I don't agree with it, but I can see the reasoning.

Good post Potholer,

What was the old saying of the Jesuits? " Give us the boy at 5 and we'll give you the man at 7" , something akin to that, and thus some control in what is taught in 'faith schools' would seem valuable.

Novo

Why exactly should I give someone a pass (intellectually) b/c of their religion? So if I'm grading a science exam, I should give creationist a pass on the evolution section?

Why again should I give muslims a pass on conspiracy theories?

>>"Which is the same case I put forward for state funding of Mosques"
>>I don't agree with it, but I can see the reasoning"

The difference is that when it comes to religious schooling, there's an argument that Muslims are discriminated against. Funding Muslim schools wouldn't necessarily lead to huge numbers of Christian or other groups saying "But *we* want that", since most already *have* 'that'.

It's *much* easier to impose rules about what goes on at schools than in places of worship. It's possible to control what the non-state ones do to a reasonable extent, so you can limit how many 'bad' alternatives people have if they want to opt out of the state system.

Novo,
SWL brought up the schools question. I don't think I said anything particularly original about it.

<>

Because it's not worth the time and effort trying to disprove something that is so ingrained. Try arguing with a conspiracy theorist about 9/11. It's like eating soup with a fork.

At the end of the day, so what if someone believes in cookie monsters? Only when that belief affects how they interact with others does it become a problem and that is very much a two-way street.

There are eminent scientists who are Christians. Does that make their work invalid?

We were examining the role of women in Mosques and someone with relevant eperience commented. How exactly does a belief in Zionist conspiracies impact on whether Muslims allow women into Mosques?

It must really pi$$ off all of those who like to pigeon hole people that *I* am defending a Muslim here.

Not me in the slightest. As you say it's >>a Muslim<< Just one person, what does that prove?

Arnie, it would do you no harm to do some reading on multiculturalism and intercultural communication. I recomend the excellent Reading Between the Signs, by Anna Mindess, and the accompanying workbook.

I tend to contribute to debates on h2g2 only when I feel informed, so I'll say no more.

TRiG.

And now having re-read SWL's response to my post, it appears his idea of 'defending' PBS is to say,

>>Wake up call for Arnie & Fanny - go ask virtually any Arab if there is a Zionist conspiracy. The belief that it exists is ingrained within Arabs and, by extension, many Muslims.<<

So PBS thinks the way he does because his 'ingrained'. Well I don't call that 'defending' anyone. Sounds more like you think he is inacapable of changing his mind. I grew up in a fairly conservative right wing area of the UK. I never met a black person until I was 15. I had basically WASPISH schooling, and WASPISH parenting, and found no problem in being able to open my mind as an intelligent adult.

It would actually be more helpful to get a response from PBS himself to hear how ingrained his attitudes really are.

And yes, what I've just posted also proves nothing, except one person can not be brainwashed indefinitely. We only have your word for it, SWL, that >>Arabs and by extension muslims<< think this way. I wonder what all the Muslim women on the desk at my GPs surgery must think of us non Muslims then. They've only ever treated me with the utmost friendliness and respect

Why don't you *really* grasp the nettle and ask them what they think of 61% of Mosques refusing to let them in?

"I've an appointment with Dr. Smith at 9am, oh and btw what do you think of 61% of mosques refusing to let you in?"

Actually on a recent Newsnight interview with a Muslim woman about the veil hooha she made a strong complaint about the mosque situation.


But your just changing the subject SWL. I do wonder how true it really is that most Muslims are anti semitic and anti christian.

How relevant is the 61% figure to an individual?
They can either go to some local mosque of their choice, if they wish to do so, or not.
If they don't have problems themselves, what happens at other mosques may be no more a concern of theirs than what happens in a different Christian sect's churches is to some other Christian woman, or what happens in an Orthodox synagogue is to a Reform woman.

If they do have problems themselves, the 61% figure may be pretty moot anyway. If they have problems and the national figure's only 5%, that doesn't necessarily make them any better off.
They're either already doing something about it, or not.
I'd hope they *were* doing something about it, but if not, do my wishes actually count for anything? Would expressing my opinion actually help?

TRiG, I suggest you pick up any scientific journal and without looking at names/locations, identify which culture the authors were from.

Social or physical sciences, Arnie?

TRiG.

SWL - nice straw man tactics.

"Because it's not worth the time and effort trying to disprove something that is so ingrained."

1st, I didn't try to dissuade PBS from his beleif. I just pointed out that if that's what he beleives, he's not a credible source.

2nd, not "trying to disprove things that ingrained" is how Kansas ended up eliminating the teaching of evolution. It's what I and every other scientist do for a living. If you like the technological advances that science has provided, you might want to reconsider whether or not its worth fighting ingrained beliefs.



"There are eminent scientists who are Christians. Does that make their work invalid?"

How does that logically extend from anything I've posted? I know religious scientists, they do awesome work - but they're not creationists. You've made the brilliant leap that creationist=Christian. And you've attributed it to me in the jump. Brilliant!

Arnie, you seem to fail to understand how richly complex the human mind can be. People can be perfectly logical and sensible most of the time, and irrational in other areas. PBS's views on Jews are of absolutely no relevance to a discussion on women in mosques, and your efforts to conflate the two lead to a small suspiscion of bating. Persue PBS's comments about Jews in the place he made them. Don't bring them up elsewhere.

TRiG.