h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The rules of war state:

* Wars should be limited to achieving the political goals that started the war (and should not include unnecessary destruction).
* Wars should be ended as quickly as possible.
* People and property should be protected against unnecessary destruction and hardship.

The laws are meant to :

* Protect both combatants and non-combatants from unnecessary suffering.
* Safeguard human rights of those who fall into the hands of the enemy: prisoners of war, the wounded, the sick and civilians.
* Prohibit deliberate attacks on civilians. But no war crime is committed if a bomb mistakenly hits a residential area.
* Combatants that use civilians or property as shields are guilty of violations of laws of war."

the term "rules of war" is an oxy-moron.

>>" In war, you target everything (especially civilian infrastructure) to defeat the other side. That's well established."

People claiming that Lebanese civilians are fair game for killing would presumably have to say the same about Israeli civilians.

Personally, I think both attitudes are equally unpleasant.

Whatever, it seems pretty scummy behaviour to bomb petrol stations to hell a day before a ceasefire. That seems like pure revenge and spite, not military strategy.

Yes. And they do. Many people.

Yes, I agree. "War is unpleasant" is an understatement.

It might seem scummy, but it might seem foolish not to.

And of course water pumping stations were bombed too.

<< How many Jacobite marches are in London this weekend?

Do you see anyone calling for a UN force to patrol the Scottish border?

You've thrown in a red herring with no relevance to the topic at hand?

(Do you have something against the Scots perchance)>>

No more do I, but they do tend to whinge about Culloden overmuch, in my experience...

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Erm Della you little , referring back to an excessively minor and largely irrelevant bit of banter from last sunday, suggests you maybe tryng just a teensy bit to destabalise the Della wars ceasefire. A nice Christian Kiwi gal like you wouldn't do a thing like that now, would you. Lets leave those tactics to those nasty Hezbollah eh?

I hope it was the auto filter that modded my post which creates a dilemma. How can we hold a serious debate and then because of one asterisked, very common, not even profane word get a light hearted post 'd

I don't think anybody within this debate is so narrow minded. I'll wait for the email but if it was the auto nanny maybe it's time to move on.

Afternoon WA

I am beginning to think that it is time to move on anyway.

Novo

Afternoon Novo,

Yes a shame we've had some good discussions but there seem to be a lot of characters departing. The flavour is changing. Still change ain't what it used to be.

WA

I see that the UN Force is to contain both Turkish & German troops, so both sides get to be aggrieved.

However, the Times carried an article hinting at trouble ahead for the French and the Turks. If the Turks end up in a position where they end up firing on Hizbollah, it will create merry hell at home politically whereas the French seem to be loathe to end up shooting at either side for fear of losing re-building contracts in Lebanon and arms contracts in Israel.

Is this a recipe for another impotent UN force?

... and in the meantime, 15,000 Lebanese soldiers have been deployed to the south and half the Israeli positions have already been handed over to UNIFIL (2000 UNIFIL soldiers in Lebanon at present)

*holds her breath*

Watches Wilma turn blue.

I was thinking that.

But seriously yes it does look encouraging for now. Let's see how effectively Hezbollah can be brought under the Lebanese government's control. And whether Iranian and Syrian interference can be properly stopped in the long term.

My guess is this (and I am ready to be proven wrong but bear with me - if you can ):

HA said in 1989 that they would only disarm when Lebanon 'in its entirety' was free of Israel.

(In this terminology they included the following - Shebaa, Lebanese detainees in Israeli jails, Israeli landmines in southern Lebanon and Israeli violations of Lebanese airspace, land and sea eg the regular sonic booms over the land, the periodic kidnapping of fisherman and the habit of sorties into Lebanon by undercover Israeli personnel)

The one thing that is very confusing to me is this insistence that HA has been active outside Lebanon. I heard on Fox News (I know , but still...) that HA was responsible for the murder of the disabled senior citizen, Jewish American, I think he was, on board the Achille Lauro, I think it was... HA have not ever acted outside of Lebanon. It was not even HA that murdered the US Marines in 1982, it was Amal (the Shia prerequisite to HA - present leader of which is now Lebanon's Speaker of the House and a one time Michigan resident, Nabih Berri ). HA is a Lebanese entity. It evolved from Amal when Amal proved impotent against the Israeli actions in Lebanon (gainst the Palestinians then) from 1978. At the time, there was no Lebanese government, let alone an army. We were in full swing of civil disarray - with Palestinian militias, Syrian occupation and everyman and his wife's uncle's favourite chauffeur setting up a neighbourhood militia.

I have never 'studied' HA in the same way as I have looked at other militias in Lebanon because... I never felt they were relevant to me. This is a realisation I have recently come to and it is indicative of how abandoned the South Lebanese were to their fate. One thing I will say - and it is unashamedly in defence of Hassan Nassrallah - no matter who I speak to, even rabid right wing Christians in Lebanon. Everyone has to grudgingly admit the man is not a corrupt politician and has never been caught out in a lie (unlike the whole slew of the rest of the clowns we have had parading through the Lebanese parliament through the decades) Very few are credited with being honest and credible. Number one comes Nasrallah (much to my initial surprise) and then people like Michel Aoun (Christian leader who 6 months ago, allied with HA - much to the shock of the nation) and Fouad Sanioura, who is a Sunni and is our Prime Minister. Most of the rest you can pretty safely bin, starting with Walid Jumblatt, the Druze leader, who we call the Chameleon on account of him changing his mind and allegiance on average every couple of years...

So.. why am I optimistic? Because I can see what the government is doing: seeming to be giving HA space - using HA and the so-called threat of not disarming until Israel fulfills its promises towards this resolution - Israel has a reputation for disregarding UN resolutions. What I think is going to happen - if all goes to plan - is that Israel exits Lebanon, hands Shebaa to the UNIFIL, along with the landmine maps and agrees to handover the Lebanese detainees before HA returns the two Israeli soldiers and voluntarily hands its arms over to the Lebanese army - not the UN. Then it will be for the UNIFIL to ensure that Israel no longer violates Lebanese land, sea and airspace.

The issue here is trust. Noone can remember who started what anymore. The cross border BS has been going on for six decades. The Israelis and the Lebanese do not trust each other. Let us see if they have both had enough - really had enough.

*takes a deep breath*

Och, nae, Ah'd nivver dae that!

(I was thinking of my Scots mother and my English father re-fighting the battle of Culloden every Saturday night, when he was a bit tight, and she was in a right snit, as we say.) ! )

Israel does have a habit of not following UN resolutions Wilma, but can you remind me at what point exactly Hizbollah followed the UN resolutions stating that it should disarm?

Accorting to the Today program, Israeli ministers are rapidly backing away from one of their election policies - that of unilateral withdrawl from the west bank. The likelihood of peace in the region seems to have taken a massive step backwards.

I hope hezbollah are pleased with themselves

Although the extreme cynic in me wonders if Israel's massive overreaction to the kidnap of two soldiers and ensuing war wasn't in part intended to engender the circumstances where they could argue that they caouldn't pull out of the west bank.

*sigh*