h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

My point is that I would dispute the term independent nuclear capability. We are merely an extension of the USAsians programme. Clinging to their coat tails. So what is the point. We are a middle ranking European country that hangs onto memories of Empire. I'm sure politicians could find better use for the money. Like redistributing it to the poor and needy.

I'd agree with all of that, but what you said was 'We can't fire it without US permission.'

That's untrue and devalues the argument.

we can only fire a Trident missile using American satelite navigation. If they choose to switch it off the missile can't be fired. Hence we need their compliance.

This reliance on American satelites is a big strategic flaw, both commercially and militarily, and one that has been addressed by Europe launching it's own system beginning, I think, next year. However, even when the European system is in place we will not be able to reprogramme our Trident missiles as the design remains with the Americans.

"The blueprints, engines, fuel and guidance systems are American. Lockheed-Martin, a US corporation, is one of the three companies managing Aldermaston."

So what... The yanks can stop giving us spare parts?

British engineers have been maintaining SLBMs since our first SSBN was launched in 1967 - do you reckon they'd be incapable of keeping them going without US aid?

"Washington knows where that elusive British submarine on patrol today is hiding, and where it's going."

There just _might_ be voluntary information passed on to the US government by the MOD as to which zone our on-duty SSBN is in - it would save some embarrasement if American's ran across it or staged a major exercise on top of its patrol area. but the whole point of a boomer is that _noone_ not even our government, knows exactly where it is at any one time (and of course, our government would be incapable of lying to anyone if they felt it necessary).

"The missiles can't be fired without information from American satellites."

You know something, that might well be the reason they still teach Naval officers how to use a sextant, a decent watch and a set of tables... You don't need GPS to find out where you are and thus fire your missiles... Ok, you might not get it right to within a couple of hundred meters - but when you're launching a multimegatonne nuke, lets face it, if it's a couple of hundred yards off target it doesn't really matter.

Oh, and in case you're going to come back and say we couldn't issue launch commands without using US communications satellites... Ever heard of ELF radio transmissions?

Oh, and to further shoot holes in your theory on a total reliance on GPS satellites...

Do you really think that any western navy would base its entire nuclear deterrent on a single navigational system throughout the cold war?

Don't you think there would be backups in place, just in case the Russians had either taken out a few GPS satellites or fried them using an EMP from a high altitude nuclear burst?

Wouldn't we, and the americans, and the french, have been rather stupid to _not_ have a backup plan?

Err, once you've shot your stars and taken noon with your sextant, and plotted your position and worked out the course for the Trident, say 3000 miles away, you push the button and whoosh, off she goes.

And a little hatch opens on the missile and out pops a very small weapons officer clutching his sextant, and nav tables, and parallel rulers to check our missile is still on course to hit the third floor of whatever we've aimed at.

I think you'll find American satelite GPS is pretty handy for ICBM's et al.

Blues Shark, A suicide bomber with a backpack (just like the ones that hit London on 7the July) could set off a nuclear bomb, a very realistic delivery system for the Middle East. If you think such a delivery system is a joke the Soviets made a nuclear backpack system in the 1960s it consisted of three "coffee can-sized" aluminium canisters in a bag with all three needing to be be connected to make a single unit in order to explode, it had a 3-to-5 kiloton yield, depending on the efficiency of the explosion. Additionally keep in mind the claims made former Russian National Security Adviser Aleksandr Lebed in 1997 that the Russian military had lost track of more than 100 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs.

WanderingAlbatross, in addition to Whisky's comments that US forces use the same satellites.

Inertial Navigation Systems anyone?

As long as you know where you are an onboard computer can get you to where you want to go...

And lets see...

First RN SSBN patrol - 1968
First USN SSBN patrol - 1960
First Russian SSBN patrol - (Some time in 1961 - don't have access to the precise date at the moment...


First GPS satellite launch - 1978.

You mean for nearly twenty years nobody could have actually fired any of those missiles And to think of how scared everyone was!

LORAN? DECCA? SINS? Ever heard of them?

Addition to my comments in post 27:
"Former Russian presidential advisor Aleksey Yablokov told a US Congressional subcommittee on 2 October 1997 that he was "absolutely sure" that ADMs had been built in the 1970s for the KGB's special forces, and that these weapons were not included in the Russian Ministry of Defense nuclear weapons inventory nor covered by its accounting and control systems."
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/reports/lebedst.htm

Sorry INS and radio based nav systems have just about been displaced by GPS. I think Decca has now been switched off.

Let me reiterate GPS is controlled by the Americans. They can selectivley switch it off. Trident navigation depends on GPS.

>Blues Shark, A suicide bomber with a backpack (just like the ones that hit London on 7the July) could set off a nuclear bomb, a very realistic delivery system for the Middle East.<

No sh*t Sherlock. It's also *exactly* the sort of delivery system that can't be deterred by saying 'I have a bigger nuke than you do - look it comes in a suitcase'.

Can GPS be selectivly switched off? Maybe they could take out an area but if they don'tknow where the sub is the entire GPS system would have to be switched off. Plus I'm pretty sure there is backup.

"Trident navigation depends on GPS" Given that the Trident missile was first deployed in 1979 BEFORE global GPS coverage I doubt that it uses GPS. In fact the manufactures list the guidance system of both the Trident I and II as inertial. If GPS was used it would be used by launch crew to programme the launch position BUT as the submarine will be deep under water GPS would be unavailable for this anyway, so as I see it switching off the GPS satellites would not make a blind bit of difference to the UK's ability to launch a nuclear missile.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/vanguard/
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/177.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_class_submarine
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=14884&rsbci=0&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_missile

"It's also *exactly* the sort of delivery system that can't be deterred by saying 'I have a bigger nuke than you do" ... I disagree.

Here you go, some background on Galileo.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=5fkukf109f6n1?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Galileo+positioning+system&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03a&linktext=Galileo%20positioning%20system

sigsfried, yes, GPS can be selectivly switched off.

Sorry, you think the 7/7 bombings could have been stopped by the nuclear deterrent? So why weren't they?

Yeah not exactly how "MAD" applies to say a rogue group with no national allegiance.

So if Al Quaida detonate a suitcase bomb happy dude who do we retaliate against using our deterrant?

Now Blue Shark don't going put words into my mouth.

I believe that the use of a nuclear backpack/suitcase bomb could be deterred by the knowledge that half the Middle East will fry if Al Qaeda ever used such a device.

I agree with Blues post way back, we certainly don't need the deterrent that we needed during the cold war. I think some deterrent is still required, and we shouldn't lose the stockpiles/knowhow.