h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This is a very interesting article, and one which definitely taught me some things I didn't know previously.

One thing that stuck in my mind was that Islam teaches the equality of men and women and the right for women to divorce. If this is so, then why is the connection made betwen the oppression of women in Muslim countries, most recently Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia?

This strikes me as a very big disconnect between practising Mulsim countries and their use of religion as a way of keeping women in a secondary position in their societies. Does anyone else see this or would like to comment?

Perhaps I have this very wrong, and I would welcome corrections also.

Where in the world are women truly treated with equality? Sadly, nowhere, it seems.

However, it *is* true that women appear to be poorly treated in many Muslim countries, and this can't all be put down to media reporting. Yet in Islamic teaching it is clear this shouldn't be the case.

One can only conclude that Muslims in those countries are not living up to their beliefs, and it is tempting to conclude that their current poor condition may be one of the consequencies of this.

A bit of holy justice, you think?

I agree with you on the point that women are hardly truly equal anywhere, but my point is that Mulsim women are downright oppressed, with social stigmas or explicit laws that are designed to keep them covered, chaperoned, out of work, not educated, dependant on menfolk in their lives for sustenance - all in all a very precarious existance. Comparing this to the stunning statement that Islam itself preaches euqality, I was merely pointing out what seemed to me an extermely large discrepancy.

True, in other religions do the poponents really practice what is preached (take Catholic priest pedophiles and their shelter within the ranks as another stunning religious disconnect). However, Islam is a religion that is shrouded in fear, hostility and not a lot of understanding at the moment, so I am interested in why there has sprung up a difference in a key tenet of the faith and its practice.

(phew, that was a long sentence!)

I think the oppression of women has to be linked to the oppressive regime. All of the people are oppressed to a certain extent. Make some of the people, ie the men, feel they have power over others and they are are happier than they would be otherwise. There is then less chance of an uprising. The regime may intentionally misrepresent the religion as that will also help their cause, further encouraging the people to do their bidding.

To illustrate this in a Christian setting: consider how many sides God was on during WWI or WWII. I'm sure he was on our side.

Ythika

not ANOTHER one.

look. I've just about had enough of this. If you think muslim women are oppressed, go and ask some of them. They'll tell you men are idiots, but then again which woman won't? I'm fairly sure my mother and sister would broadly concur, but at the same time, I doubt they feel oppressed by my father or myself.

My wife may have many genuine reasons for complaint about me, but oppression wouldn't be one of them. As she is a very sincere and practising Muslim, she is quite assertive (that's a compliment, not a criticism)!

But I am bigger than her!

I'm sorry if I have been misunderstood. I honestly believe that the vast majority of Muslim women are not oppressed and was genuinely talking about oppressive regimes, such as the Taliban, where all the people were oppressed. I think a lot of people look at extremes and apply them to the norm without thinking.
I have a female friend who chose Islam as her faith. I know she would not have chosen a religion that did not consider her to be equal to men. In fact, I think that might be why she chose Islam. It was the only religion that declared her to be of equal value.

Ythika

Alright I've arrived what seems to be the problem oh I see.
Well to be blunt and honest Saudi arabia and Afganistan do have a corrupt goverment like most countries and are not following true sharia law. But the majority of Muslim women even in these countries are happy.
I have a article called Islam and Women you may find helpful in explaining things and is a better setting for these questions as people looking particuly at women in Islam will have the answers there insha allah.

Allah hafiz.

Adib

Without doubt women have a psition of less power in the world. I live in England which many people believe to be a liberal and fair country but it was only fairly recently that rape within marriage became a crime. People who tell you that you'd have less freedom elsewhere are more often than not distracting you from the restritions that you have to live under.

Very true, women who travel from the UK to the Far East, or Africa, or the Islamic countries often find that the myths about women being oppressed and enslaved are often greatly exaggerated, if not outright lies.

I think one of the things that people for get is that yes it says that women shopuld cover up but it also says men should too. I remember having a debate with a woman who insisted that having to cover up was sexist against women even thoughing the man has to cover up to. She seemed to think that restricting what both sexs could wear was sexist for women and said men should chgange there attitudes over women who dress revealingly to which I pointed out was fairly sexist to men to a certain extent.

Adib

Women are in individual cases more oppressed in the west by our views on the female form (anorexia, plastic surgery) than by the muslim dress code, it is intended to free people from being so focused on the body. That said you can understand why non muslims see the oppression of women as part of Islam. I work with muslim youths and have learnt to see that the restrictions within the muslim community have more to do with "old country" traditons and the elders dtermination to preserve them than Islam itself.

Its the same kind of zealots who stand outside abortion clincs and abuse women or murder doctors, they may call themselves Christians but that does not mean that what they do is a Chritian act.

I know what you mean.

People always focus on the negative and not see the positive.

Adib

This is an extremely curious thread, and it illustrates a trend that is equally curious. In short, it seems that modern culture is either unable or unwilling to draw any distinction between degrees of wrongdoing that are, upon plain inspection, clearly extremely different in injury and scope.

This thread, for instance, was begun by someone asking about how the oppression of women in the middle east can be reconciled with the Quaran's view of equal treatment between the sexes. The first few threads, instead of dealing with that issue, essentially say that the middle east is no different than the rest of the world regarding treatment of women, so it is rather narrow-minded to single that culture out.

I hate to be merely contrary, but I did a bit of research on the topic on the Internet, steering purposely toward sites written and published by middle-eastern sources, and found that it is the general rule that middle-eastern women are forbidden to drive, to hold an occupation, to attend sporting matches or other recreational events, or to attend advanced learning institutions. There were references to women being stoned for adultery (1995), self-immolation in order to avoid forced marriage, and, on the most positive end of the spectrum, women who had found a way to gain advanced degrees being allowed to only hold sales and customer service positions.

Our family Doctor is an Iraqi muslim woman who regularly travels to her home country and returns with tales of the rampant illiteracy and oppression of women that is still prevalent. This, she has allowed, is the very reason she has moved to the United States.

So, in short, it seems that there really isn't much question about the type and scope of oppressions occuring to women in the middle east. By contrast, women in the western world, while they do indeed struggle against issues such as anorexia and personal esteem in the face of a barrage of media implying that their worth lies only in their ability to turn male heads, are yet allowed to drive, attend college, marry whom they wish, divorce whom they wish, sue whom they wish, vote for whom they wish, and far from attending any event they wish, they are now increasingly finding avenues open into establishments, such as the Citadel, that have been traditionally male.

Please understand, I am not downplaying the struggles of women in western civilization today. I am, however, making the point that trying to draw an equation between a woman who cannot leave her home without her husband chaperoning her and a woman who has self esteem issues because the media says she has to look like Britney Spears is, in a word, asinine.

Avoiding addressing equality issues because they seem to say something uncomfortable about the culture they occur in helps no one and is, some might even argue, yet another crime against those oppressed. Trying to draw equations between a great wrong somebody else has suffered and a slight wrong we ourselves endure is, please forgive me for saying, shameful and selfish.

I cant speak for other reseachers but I can understand their reluctance to look at this not as an Islamic issue.

Currently the anglican communion is split idealogocaly over the ordination of women Bishops. Though this single issue does not bare comparrison directly with women being stoned for adultery they do have some aspects that are similar do they not?

As i have said I know and work with many muslims I find them no more oppressive of women than your average christian or unthinking atheist. Oppression of women in the middle east though it is justified by those who do it as being purely for the reason of folowing gods law has as much to do with gods law as the 9/11 hijackings did.

Just this week it emerged that prince Charles, one day to be "The defender of the Faith" had written a memo saying that some of his staff had ideas above their station.

This is the exact idea that oppresses women in the middle east or indeed anyone anywhere else the mistaken belief that some are free to do anything though many things are beneath them while others are only fit for certain activities and will never be capable of others.

I have never tried to down pplay anyones suffering yet we must set all tings in context and deal wit things holistically. If we dont we not only run the risk of being accused of cultural chavanisms but more importantly we will not be tackling the issue properly.

So though as you correctly put it some things are very different in injury and scope, they are all infact symptoms of the same disease and what many in the west see as cures are infact very limited treatments of specific sypmtoms that do nothing to treat the underlying problem.

one love

Salaam,

though I agree that the perspectives of the incidents are different I still find my self wondering why you mentioned it.

Whats it really matter if the researches firstly wanted to point out that oppresion of women happens all over the world in some form or another. Maybe they are tired with Islam being seen as oppressing to women because people can't see the difference between the Middle east and Muslim's and was trying to make a point. The point being that there are other countries in the world that oppress women in other ways that can be just as bad but no one mentions them, and that oppression of women is not just limited to that of the middle east. Oppresion of women does happen all over the world and it does take many forms but just because one may be worse than the other we should not just pass a blind eye over the lesser one. what I mean is that People should stop the closed view that oppresion only happens in the middle East and that it happens all over the world in various forms and effects people in various ways. You say that oppresion of women in western countries is only things like having to look a cetain way, and is as such a small trival thing compared to the middle East.

You go and tell that to the parents of girls who have commited suicide becausue they got bullied for not looking a certain way and for being a bit chubby. I'm sure that they will glady listen to your claim that it is only a miner oppresion of women and can so be ignored untill after the rest of the world treats women to the same level as America and the Uk does.

Is not oppresion also when women are raped and the person who raped them is back walking the streets after a couple of years, if that?

Could it be that the small oppression that you state of as having to look a certain way and dress revealinly and act in a certain manner may infact have an effect on the minds of some people that stops them seeing women as people but more as some thing to admire and use and throw away once they have had some fun. Could it be that the the current climate in western countries regarding the portrayal of women in media and on Tv and in magazines may in fact help breed rapists and other such people.

Or what about Women who end up pregnant and the man just walks away and dumps her. Is that not an oppression of the womans rights.

Oppression no matter in what form is bad and should be dealt with, it should not be ignored becasue there are people who are worser of in life. It should all be dealt with.

the question asked has a one word answer and that is 'No'. Islam does not support what happens in the middle East.

I don't see why you raise the point of reserchers firstly pointing out oppresion of women takes place all over the world before moving on to the subject of Islam and the treatment towards of women. The question was still answered wasn't it.

As Blickybadger said Oppression of women in the middle east though it is justified by those who do it as being purely for the reason of folowing gods law has as much to do with gods law as the 9/11 hijackings did.

Adib

Could it be that the the current climate in western countries regarding the portrayal of women in media and on Tv and in magazines may in fact help breed rapists and other such people.

Simple answer Adib. NO.

Lets get this straight I understand where you get the idea from.

Brainless low lifes who see a woman lookin good and say "she is asking for it." Everyone of them is wrong.

A woman should be allowed to wear what she wants without being abused even verbally. Let alone have her body violently used y someone with no right whatsoever to do so. Even prostitutes deserve the dignity to be allowed to consent to the transaction of sex for cash.

The idea also cames after the fact from men defending themselves in court "oh she was wearing a short skirt or a low cut top". Utter rubbish.

Now unless the media is portraying rape as acceptable and isnt or if prior to the advent of mass media there were no rapes and there were your suggestion just doesnt stand up.

Infact rape has always occured in societies of all kinds. Its not even about portrayal because I cant think of anywhere that the rape of children and the elderly is widely advocated but both these things.

In short "page three" stunnahs and Brittney Spears videos have nothing to do with and do not in anyway excuse rape.

one love

I do have some problems with the western portrayal of women. But I also would not say that it in any way promotes such things as rape. Rather rapists seem to be people with a very low view of women, looking at them as something less than human. So something that would cause rape, would more likely be something that gave the message a woman is worth less than a man, or perhaps comparing her to an animal.

Sorry I did not make my self clearer. I was not talking about just rapists of the physical kind but of all kinds. I agree that not all rapists are that way because of just the way women dress. Yet there are some who do do it for those reasons. But not as many as the normal ones.

I was also referring to what I guess you would call sexual harasment. Its just that in Islam this is also seen as a form of rape, but not physical.

for example when there is a good looking women at work and she gets lierd at and the men amoungst them selves say such degrading things as "Look at her she's asking for it."

I actaully had a friend once a long time ago ( thankfully I got rid of him as a friend soon after I found out what he was like). When walking down the street with him he would look at any women who he thought was pretty and was showing her body or legs and he would be like hmmm look at that and he would mimic licking his lips.

Sorry I did not make my slef clearer I was a bit peaved at the time over some thing and then came on here and find someone saying that its basiclly ok to ignore the deprevation of women in this country as its worse in other countries. I'm one of those people who think that bad things not matter how small should be dealt with and not ignored.

An let me tell you why. Culture has influenced people to do what the opposite of there faith tells them to. The other week at Mosque a woman (well a girl really) was there for her funeral. Apparantly she had commited suicide because she was forced into a marriage she did not want and her husband was abusive and hit her. She left three children behind and she was only around 23 years old. I think everyone on this site who knows me knows that I stand up for Islam and why I try so hard in telling the differenve between what Islam permits and what is culture influenced. If that girls parents had been more Islamic and less cultural she would never have been forced to marry that guy. When these things happen it makes me so angry, and it was the day after that I came on line and read the posts on here, and I was still a bit angry over it. Sorry I must apologise for giving in to my anger ant not speaking to politly to you all that day.

Take care.

adib qasim