A Conversation for Neurotheology - The God-Shaped Hole in the Head

But why is it there?

Post 21

Recumbentman

Hello and welcome to a new page.

I'm answering Chaiwallah's Post 11 (which you can refer back to if you have the multi-blob conversation tree thingy). He says: "you say that big human brains provide a home for consciousness, as though consciousness were a higher order of material creature on the evolutionary scale?"

And yes that is more or less what I picture. Almost like a parasite that comes to live in a niche . . . a hermit crab.

Where new features "come from" in evolution can't easily be said; the rulke of thumb is "Evolution is smarter than you". Random mutations is all we can say, but only those that fit the niche survive and get immortalised. Conway's Game of Life is a good analogy: the shapes we see (fliers, eaters, whatever they're called) arise directly from the rules of the game, although these rules in no way comprehend the existence of the shapes. So in evolution the animals are shaped by the niche they fill, but couldn't have been predicted; similarly consciousness arises from the big brain, and fills the niche in the only way possible. The world was waiting for it, it appeared. In retrospect we can say it was predestined, but only with hindsight can this (or anything) be said.


But why is it there?

Post 22

Moth

No I haven't read those . although explanations of what they are have cropped up on site.

I have all the negative and positive attributes of a person who has not considered other theories in the written form smiley - biggrin
I'm trying to make my own.


But why is it there?

Post 23

Moth

Didn't Darwin say that the evolution ofthe eye is too marvellous for his theory


But why is it there?

Post 24

Noggin the Nog

No. If eyes were difficult evolution wouldn't have 'invented' them so many times. A functioning bacteria, on the other hand...



So have I, albeit for somewhat different reasons. smiley - smiley



How so, if consciousness and matter are both the same 'stuff'?

Time and space are spacetime seen from different points of view.

Matter and forces are energy seen from different points of view.

Noggin


But why is it there?

Post 25

Moth

Noggin

"How so, if consciousness and matter are both the same 'stuff'?"

Well Noggin they are the same stuff to me, that sentence was so that I would appear to be less loopy smiley - biggrin
I don't think it's working though.
how on earth can I explain in simple terms, that I see consciousness as a subatomic particle which implies matter?
you'd have to be daft to believe that smiley - biggrin

"Time and space are spacetime seen from different points of view."

No that doesn't feel right to me.(obviously because I'm looking from my point of view)
Time and spacetime, feels just a measurement
Time = to measure changes and spacetime = to measure distances.
when I talk about time I mean that, the measurement and when I talk about space I mean the place. Unless I say spacetime.
Although one cannot exist without the other.
Time cannot exist without change and change cannot happen unless we have matter/energy in space.
(the more I think about it the word space looks odd here as if it's not quite right)
"Matter and forces are energy seen from different points of view."

Yes. Again I've mixed the words matter and energy and consciousness and have had a hard time explaining my thoughts.
So have used the words in their more everyday usage.
Matter contains energy - is energy.
Matter contains the energy of consciousness at a subatomic level.
As is self evident I'm not reading this anywhere. smiley - biggrin
now you've brought 'force' into the equation.
what is the source of the force?




But why is it there?

Post 26

Recumbentman

How do they get the figs into the fig rolls?

Who cares Geronimo, they're gorgeous.


But why is it there?

Post 27

chaiwallah

Was it Fritjov Kapra who said that "matter" is a three-dimensional interference pattern resulting from vibrations in substantially "empty" consciousness? Or words to that effect.

I am always amazed by the fact that the emptiest level of space, proportionally, is that lying between the electron field and the nucleus, given that the nucleus itself is composed of subatomic particles which seem to behave more and more like "consciousness" the further down you go. Where time either does not exist, or can run backwards and forwards, where paired particles, flying apart at the speed of light communicate a change of "spin" instantly, although there is no known means for energy to transfer between them. where the single photon mysteriously interferes with itself to produce interference patterns with a non-existent "other" , perhaps in a parallel universe, or by itself stepping in and out of "time."

Well, they say if you think you have understood quantum field theory, you don't understand it. Which I don't, but John Gribbin does a good job of delineating its incomprehensibility.


But why is it there?

Post 28

Moth

Recumbentman
Ah but, if the apocalypse occurred and only a few humans survived there would be no more fig rolls without a recipe smiley - winkeye


But why is it there?

Post 29

Moth

Chai

It's my 'theory' that the subatomic particles of consciousness are the building blocks of 'everything' and that they respond to the 'will' of the greater consciousness to create what we will. or need.
That is why I suggested that anyone attempting to 'capture' or understand particle/ conscious will have a hard time recognising it, because it will 'become' what they expect it to become smiley - biggrin
different expectations will produce different 'results'
that is why it will be hard to understand Quantum physics, which will ultimately be the study of this particle.
results will be affected by the 'will' of the researcher.

just as in the experience behind the firewall, 'becomes' what the mind expects it to become Until such time as it is understood/felt that subatomic dark energy/conscious has this function.
I'll take as an example the near death experience. (and in this a NDE is just that, with cardiac arrest)
The partiel lobes cease to function as a firewall, we will feel the loss of self, time and space . This HAS to happen because the brain is no longer maintaining separateness.
During 'transition' the mind is desperate to 'hang onto reality as we know it and produces scenes we 'expect' to see and we can 'exist' in this level of consciousness, and attempt to 'impose' a time line and a physical shape on the 'dream'
It can provide us with visions of Jesus , Bhudda ,, father, etc.
It is simply reacting to our 'will' to see what we expect to see.
In other words the living physical body is a habit it takes a while to drop.
The less 'knowledge' we accept as to 'our' condition the longer it would 'appear' that we remain in this state.
The difference between a 'visit' to the subconscious and a continuation in that state (death)is this 'dreamlike' expectation of events.
When realisation of a 'soul' occurs then the conscious 'moves' on to become the particles of the whole without an ego/mind to create scenerios of the physical habit.
We then become 'again' what we were originally. part of the subatomic particle 'system' that creates the universe through the 'will' of it's whole.


But why is it there?

Post 30

chaiwallah

Moth,

Thank you for taking my thoughts on board sufficiently to give such a generous gift of explanation to me. I suspect that somehwhere along the line you have either been a meditator, exposed to Vedic thought, or something similar, because the picture you draw of the relationship between consciousness and the quantum-energy field is exactly what Maharishi and co have been saying for the last couple of decades. One of M's favourite phrases is that "consciousness is the home of all the laws of nature," and that unbounded consciousness IS the unified field.

But I must go and work. I would like to talk to you much more about all this. I would like to hear you talk in detail about the relationship of consciousness to sub-atomic particles. Maybe you could email me at [email protected]

Thanks,

Chai


But why is it there?

Post 31

chaiwallah

PS, as I think I said before, in my experience of being close to death three times, ( twice in car accidents ) NDE's have nothing to do with "survival of something after death", and everything to do with, as you said, the brain closing down. Which I experienced in glorious technicolour ( before the drug days ) during sex.....yes, the whole bit, down the whirling tunnel, into the great light, the loving presence, out-of-body awareness etc. No, not every time, just with this one lover, and not always then. It even used to occur to a lesser degree when I was relaxing in the bath. My pulse rate used to drop to around 20 beats per minute ( which in those days I could control by "intention." Then I got into drugs and lost the lot!)

The intuition from the point-of-view of "unified" consciousness is that consciousness is impersonal, unbounded, eternal etc. etc., and our individual awareness a brief, wondeful wave in that ocean.


But why is it there?

Post 32

Moth

no I haven't read anything by the maharishi, all my answers come from my near death experience and worse!
hotmail says it doesn't recognise your e-mail????

[email protected]

yes that's my real name


But why is it there?

Post 33

chaiwallah

with three "n's" in the email address?
Wow, what an amazing insight your NDE provided. I really must go to work. But I will email you later. Thanks for what you have shared.


But why is it there?

Post 34

Moth

nnn
Yes


But why is it there?

Post 35

Ste

I wish I had time in this last week to take part in this fantastic conversation, I've been way too busy. smiley - sadface Thanks anyway smiley - biggrin, I love the way that this'll be attached to my article.

Chaiwallah,
'"Can all of this really be explained and witnessed using a glorified X-ray machine which tracks blood around your head? Strangely, yes." Witnessed, definitely yes. Explained? I wonder.'

I see your point, imprecise language perhaps. I'll think of a different word to 'explained', how's about 'described'? Thank you for sharing your experience, it sheds a lot of light on this phenomenon.

All of you guys are wonderful smiley - hug

Stesmiley - mod


But why is it there?

Post 36

chaiwallah

Hi, Ste,

Looking forward to hearing more from you. Have you gone over to read Moth's contributions to the Near Death Experience thread? Mind-blowing, literally. smiley - smiley
Chai


But why is it there?

Post 37

Ste

Hi Chaiwallah smiley - ok

No, I haven't, is it in askh2g2, or elsewhere? I'll check his space out, thanks.

Stesmiley - mod


But why is it there?

Post 38

chaiwallah

Yes, Ste, it's in Ask h2g2, and you can also get to through my per/space. And Moth is an amazing she.
Chai


But why is it there?

Post 39

Noggin the Nog

Ste - Moth is Hasslefree from the Fact or Fiction thread, so you have met before.

And I can't resist Moth, it's *already* hard to understand Quantum physics... smiley - laugh

Noggin


But why is it there?

Post 40

Moth

Noggin
Sorry I was referring, in my head, to earlier post (somewhere or other smiley - biggrin ) about scientists attempting to 'capture' dark energy in a cave somewhere. (shades of mordor ? )

I should have said it will 'always' be impossible to agree over quantum physics because results will (are) be 'altered' by the conscious of the researcher.


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