h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Entry: Neurotheology - Is God in Our Heads? - A933635
Author: Ste (Just Now) - U172039

Deadline Day!

This is the other entry that was split from the 'Evolution of Faith' entry, dealing with the neurological aspects of spiritual experiences.

Tell me what you think.



Ste

I know nothing about this subject, but this entry is exellent and should go in PR!

Thanks

But this a part of the University Project on Belief, and is therefore bypassing PR.



Ste

Oh, I see. Great entry, I look forward to seeing the finished version in Uni.

Any feedback/potential improvements you would like to offer Atari?

Ste

See posting 1, I know nothing about the subject, sorry...

Unfortunately I think there's a basic flaw here. You confuse religion with spirituality. I notice the Washington Post put 'spiritual' in quotes - it should have done that also with 'religious'.

There's a big give-away with the 'even' in 'Even the non-religious can have deep spiritual experience'. Of course they can! When religious people have a spiritual experience they might describe it in terms of their particular religious belief, but that is not because of the experience itself, it's because of how they interpret it.

Now when you say 'Spiritual experiences of peoples from Tibetan monks to Franciscan nuns have certain things in common' that isn't really the whole gamut, is it? You are just talking about different religions and what they might have in common. (As an aside, Franciscans don't have monks and nuns. It would have been more accurate to say Benedictine!) 'Spiritual' experiences among monastic communities are often frowned upon and treated with healthy suspicion by the wise and experienced. People can easily mislead themselves about such things - and this is an important point which I think you should mention.

You then go on to say 'Prayer and meditation are the same thing. They both require deep concentration'. Well, prayer and meditation are not the same thing. You can pray without meditating, and you can meditate without praying. And they do not 'require' concentration. Both prayer and meditation can be practised without concentration. Depending on what you mean by 'concentration' (which you do not explain) it could be regarded as a barrier to either prayer or meditation.

'Religion, prayer, and meditation are common amongst all world religions' - well of course religion is common among religions, so you can strike that. What do you mean by 'world' religions, and why don't you include the other religions? In any case, I don't agree that meditation is common in all religions. It happens, religion or no religion, but in some 'world' religions it is quite a rare phenomenon. Judaism for example, if that's a 'world' religion.

So I think it would be a good idea to remove all mention of 'God', 'religion', 'religious' and similar phrases from this entry (and the title). That would clarify what I think you are trying to say. Of course I could be wrong, but what comes across as I read this entry is that you really know very little about religion and its spiritual side, and what you do say about it detracts from your main point.

I have to confess that I agree with didi that prayer and meditation are not the same thing. (See A778034 which - among other things - describes the differences as they appear to me).

B

didi
I certainly am not trying to correct you, because you make your point very well, but I know for a fact that in the early 60's the Franciscians had nuns because my parents had sent me to a Catholic school wherein Franciscans would knock me in the head for any number of transgressions. Hope it helps!
diversity

I assumed from what didi had written that she meant that Franciscan Order members are not designates as 'nuns' or 'monks' but as 'Franciscans'.

B

Hi Ste. I note that your conclusion raises many questions. What fun it would have been to have had some answers! I think you would have been fairly safe in concluding that neurotheology is, and always will be, an inconlusive exercise; just activity of bits of the brain that implement the correlates of various culturally transmitted ideas. Guess anyone with temporal lobes etc is gonna have spiritual experiences - hence their universality.

And what fun it would have been to have had the perfect entry - the ultimate answer in fact - from your good self Toxxin!

B

Hi Ben. I'm not so sure that anyone would recognise the perfect answer even if it existed. At least this project seems to have settled the question as to whether that 'God shaped hole' is just them ole temporal lobes buzzin away! Seems pretty convincing!

didi,

Thanks for the critical feedback. I recognise that this entry needs some polishing and editing still, and your comments will only go to improve it. You've pointed out some glaring errors, and also taught me a little bit.

I don't think I'm confusing spirituality with religion, I'm lumping them together! But point taken.

'When religious people have a spiritual experience they might describe it in terms of their particular religious belief, but that is not because of the experience itself, it's because of how they interpret it.'
Of course, thanks for pointing this out. I'll correct it.

'Now when you say 'Spiritual experiences of peoples from Tibetan monks to Franciscan nuns have certain things in common' that isn't really the whole gamut, is it? You are just talking about different religions and what they might have in common.'
Yes I am. I think it reads better than 'religions have things in common'. Maybe I could say somewhere that it isn't totally universal...

I'm going to leave 'Franciscan nun' until I find anything otherwise. I'll do a bit of research about it, seeing as people are disagreeing here.

I went to far to say that prayer and meditation are the same thing, I agree. However, earlier I said 'It would seem that prayer and meditation produce the same results, both as described by the people experiencing them, and in the brains of volunteers as viewed by neurobiologists', which you did not comment upon. Am I to assume that this is alright, yet to simply say they are 'the same' is not? To be honest, I was summing up the '...same results...' sentance with the '...same thing...' sentance, too eagerly it seems. Do you really think it's necessary to explain what concentration is?

To remove all mention of God or religion is going too far in my opinion. I could tone it down however.



Toxx (hi),

I had a previous conclusion that was more, um, conclusive. However I took into account Ben's advice when she said that she prefers entries that raise questions rather than sets opinions against each other. It's her university project. Would it be better to state that God is all in our heads?

'I think you would have been fairly safe in concluding that neurotheology is, and always will be, an inconlusive exercise'
I have, haven't I? The conclusion is in itself inconclusive.

How about a title change to include the 'God Shaped Hole'?

Thanks everyone, I'll keep working at it...

Ste

Hey - don't drag me into this! My view of the project is of an anthology of entries, showcasing a number of different voices, opinions, theories and styles. It has no underlying thesis, and I disagree with the conclusions or arguments or both of several of the entries.

Conclude it however you like, Ste. When I was commenting it was as a fellow researcher, not as the Main Projector, (or whatever the official term is). (Mind you, I may come back and comment as the main projector later - it will be interesting to see if I agree with myself ).

On the subject of Meditation and Prayer - I personally feel very strongly that they are different things. In fact both terms cover a wide range of different activities. If you want more info on my personal view of what each one covers you can find it here: A778034. However, this is a personal opinion, and I didn't comment on that at the time, because (as main projector), I thought it was important you said what you wanted to say, not what I wanted you to say.

"Neurotheology - the God-Shaped Hole in the Head"?


B

I've *just* updated it some more. Apart from the final paragraph, which I am going to change somehow...

"Neurotheology - the God-Shaped Hole in the Head"?
Oh man, I'm tempted...

Ste

Ste. I think you're dead right to be tempted. Wonderful title. Intriguing yet accurate and informative. Love it!

Changed the title!

Rewritten the conclusion somewhat, especially the last para.

Everyone.

Ste

Ste. Punchy but still balanced. I like it.

I have pleased the Toxx. I can now retire to the West and remain Ste.



Ste