h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

"Gawd App will you listen to yourself. You're getting all pissed off because I'm not buying your ideas of democracy ok? So what do you want to do? Force it? How colonial is that huh?"

Hmm this is what I said... "You speak like democracy is a bad thing. What would you rather we use. The Maori used to keep slaves of each other (I know that stopping slavery is a relatively recent thing in America). Do you think that is a good idea?"

You get angry again and avoid the question.

You want to know what p*ssed me off?!?! Read your statement below. Who do you think you are to presume?

"I guess I heard now both sides of the Treaty of Waitangi issue. Here's the Maori side..."

I've noticed something about you. When your ignorance and discusting attitude or instances when you're just plain wrong are pointed out to you, you drop it and move on to the next thing you can rubbish.

You said earlier that you're used to not being listened to. If this is the way you treat any who entertained the idea of listening to you.

Tadsatduck - with all these long posts, did you get the link I left for you?

I'll keep looking though

Got the link...between looking that up and a few things mentioned but not pinpointed by Lilithcokie I will be doing some research for a while...I will get back to both of you when I have more info


Sad thing is I went to The NYC public library...and asked the clerk at the desk where the reference books where on legal codes last weekend...He asked me what I was looking up...did a google search and printed it out...oh how I miss looking stuff up in books...even if it does take a little longer


()

Ok again Apparition...

You... You want to know what p*ssed me off?!?! Read your statement below. Who do you think you are to presume?

"I guess I heard now both sides of the Treaty of Waitangi issue. Here's the Maori side..."

Me... So did YOU give me the 'REAL' Maori side yet? I really don't think I would have missed it if you had. So maybe I presumed right after all huh?

You... I've noticed something about you. When your ignorance and discusting attitude or instances when you're just plain wrong are pointed out to you, you drop it and move on to the next thing you can rubbish.

You said earlier that you're used to not being listened to. If this is the way you treat any who entertained the idea of listening to you.

Me... Yeah I'm disgusting ain't I? Gosh what I wouldn't give to meet your standards of propriety not to mention your astonishing command of the English language. Like is that last sentence of yours complete and if so what does it mean? Or am I just supposed to guess and then be chastised later for being disgusting or just plain wrong?

Which sort of brings up what I've noticed about you.

You seem to need to dominate anyone you talk to and if they don't agree with you right damn now you rather attack them personally than show why the accounts they give of things are wrong. You haven't disputed a single item in the list I posted other than to call the whole thing one sided. What am I supposed to conclude from that huh?

Instead all you've done is tried to divert the discussion into just about anything that isn't relevant to whether or not the New Zealander obligations specified Treaty of Waitangi were in fact properly discharged. That's what I was interested in because it would show whether or not your government was really any better than the American government in giving indigenous people a fair settlement.

Nor have you explained why New Zealanders now apparently have most of the land while the Maori apparently have mostly a treaty that's mostly worthless except for the fishing rights that are sorta similar to what the Salish have to contend with in America to exercise their fishing rights under treaty.

And the reason for that I reckon is because you can't show the treaty was fairly honored anymore than Americans can show the treaties here were fairly honored. So you get just as disgusted with me as they do when I bring that little detail to everybody's attention, but who's fault is that huh?

If you guys are a bunch of lying thieves why does that make me disgusting huh? I think it makes you disgusting and I'm sorry to get personal about it but you set the tone here Ace so deal with that if you can.

Tadsatduck - I know what you mean, It's nice to go offline sometimes and spend some time with printed pages.



lilithcookie - It's saturday here so I may come back to your post monday. I tried but gave up when I saw you have now moved on to rubishing what I write late on a Friday afternoon

"not to mention your astonishing command of the English language."

Lilith, I know from discussions I have had with Maori people, that you're going to find what I say unacceptable, but I have to say it. My father came to NZ in 1952, the year before I was born. He stayed until he died 20 years later (plus change). My mother's family came in the 1870s, from Scotland and Canada.

What I am saying is, it's darn hard for me to feel *involved* in this, personally, I mean. I can (and do) get indignant about what is done, and I am aware of a huge Waitangi compensation and land restoration process going on here in NZ (not *very* aware, sorry, but I know as much as the average reader of the daily papers.

I once married a Maori man (we split up 20+ years since, tho' we didn't divorce.) At the time, he knew nothing about colonial and land issues and cared less. I've heard he now takes a more active interest, but he and I don't talk. (Putting it mildly, actually). So, I got involved in the racial/colonial issue by becoming a part of his whanau, as we had a child. Even so, I still don't feel and won't get, emotionally involved, or responsible. Maybe a (theoretical) past life could involve me in personal responsibility, but meantime, I feel more responsible for 3rd world poverty and say, for instance, repression in Burma - cos I could *do* something about that! By which I mean, Amnesty International and Unicef...

Well Della... offhand if I didn't think about it much I'd say maybe it'd be better if you worked on stuff in your own backyard instead of Burma which goes by another name now right? But if I do think about it I can kind of get where you're coming from.

You see what I've been getting here from App with the here we go 'round the mulberry bush right? So you probably figure you're just wasting your time with domestic issues. I kind of feel the same way when I get to go 'round the mulberry bush with politians in America. It's like the closer they get to the problem the harder time they have figuring it out.

And that's because maybe like you they grew up thinking... 'It's my land. I was born here wasn't I?' And then these drunken jokers come along looking dark and menacing saying... 'no it ain't your land howlie' or 'whitey' or 'twinklebunny'... 'it's our land!'

Well what's a person to do then huh?

Well you check it out and sure enough it's their land. There were like treaties... contracts ya know? So how do we get out of those things and what kind of idiots got us into that stuff in the first place huh?

Oh my gawd!

So it's like scramble time and we're not talking eggs either but we got to come up with something quick... so we do and it shows because when we blow up the balloons to float, they keep popping them and man... that's annoying! Wish they'd just shutup ya know? Why can't they just get with the program huh? Don't they understand how great everything is now?

Well... no they don't... because for them it ain't that great and it ain't never been that great and as far as anybody can tell it ain't ever going to be that great until they get the land back or get fairly compensated for the land they know they can't get back because it's paved over.

So the struggle goes on.

In the meantime America and company are busy busy reinventing their markets so they can stay ahead of the curve moving stuff 'offshore' so they don't have to contend with regulation which is a bad bad word if you're a business person or a pirate.

So the American labor guys bitch then because all the high paying jobs are going overseas where they become low paying jobs and the low paying jobs that are already there for people who've gotten pushed off their land and have to sift through the garbage around the big urban areas get lower... but things are better because the elite get the formerly high paying American jobs and can then afford to hire the scum of the earth to clean their toilets.

And this is known as 'globalization' in case you've been hiding in a cave in Afghanistan lately and haven't checked checked the ads on your satelite phone. But it only works if you can intimidate and coerce people into parting with their real estate in the first place and tribal people are the first ones to take the hit because as everyone knows they own their land in common and therefore have no incentive to progress so we're doing them a favor by taking it for more useful development such as stripmines and oilfields and apartment blocks and bigbox retail outlets.

And that's why we got to have those action packed movies like Blackhawk Down to make people feel better when their hired thugs get dusted because the Powerpoint presentations weren't convincing and somebody miscalculated the 'ferocity of the response'.

Ignorant savages! Who DO they think they are? Isn't that what HE asked me? Who do I think I am?

Well who knows right? Anyways I heard that things are kind of getting better in New Zealand and even Australia so that ought to give us some hope that everything will get better in the morning or sometime long ago in a galaxy far faraway.

And I hope that someday New Zealanders like you can reclaim your land with pride knowing you've done the right thing and not because you planted somebody's banner or logo on it or pulled some legal sleight of hands that take courts years to untangle.

And I think it's possible to get the Maori to buy into that maybe because I think most indigenous people would rather make love not war but few of them like to starve or be assimilated into some greedy system that makes a few callous jerks addicted to their own importance rich while the rest have to get by with credit cards or almost nothing at all.

I mean who would? Maybe that's something all of us should think about once in awhile.

lil - I can see that arguing is a pointless exercise. The only point to I see to anything you anger and the expression of that anger with some ignorance thrown in. I see now that you are incapable of seeing the world in any terms other than your American viewpoint.

I have quoted myself below with questions you have failed to answer. I hope that you will answer them rather than vent your anger and avoid them again.

"Here's a fact for you. A little over 1000 years ago there was no human presense here what so ever. Then there was a culture here. Then there was a colonising force of polynesians who later became called the Maori. Are they somehow exempt from all you anger at colonisation?"

"You speak like democracy is a bad thing. What would you rather we use. The Maori used to keep slaves of each other (I know that stopping slavery is a relatively recent thing in America). Do you think that is a good idea?"

""Just don't be congratulating yourself before the job is done ok?" The job is getting done and when will the job be done? When you sitting in America, sitting in judgement are happy with it?"

ps: you have expressed you wish not to be known as american. Are you now deciding this for an entire race? You mention New Zealander and Maori as though the two are mutually exclusive.

So Apparition... this is how you answer for the legislative betrayal of the treaty?

You... "Here's a fact for you. A little over 1000 years ago there was no human presense here what so ever. Then there was a culture here. Then there was a colonising force of polynesians who later became called the Maori. Are they somehow exempt from all you anger at colonisation?"

Me... No I don't excuse it but that's not the point. European colonists made the treaty with Maori then did everything in their power to undo it. They put nothing in the treaty abrogating it if the Maori had been colonist themselves so why is it so important now?

You... "You speak like democracy is a bad thing. What would you rather we use. The Maori used to keep slaves of each other (I know that stopping slavery is a relatively recent thing in America). Do you think that is a good idea?"

Me... No it's not a good idea but that's also not the point. Once again European colonists made the treaty with Maori then did everything in their power to undo it. They put nothing in the treaty abrogating it if the Maori were found to be slaveholders so why is it so important now?

The Cherokee were slaveholders just like their anglo neighbors in Georgia. That doesn't excuse the institution for either people but neither does it justify Andrew Jackson abrogating the treaty with the Cherokee that Congress had made and the Supreme Court had upheld. And he did not attempt to justify it that way because it would have been hypocritical for a slaveholder to try to justify the thing that way.

You've maybe cleverly concealed where you come from although you don't identify yourself as indigenous to the islands so maybe there's slaveholders in your heritage too eh? And maybe for that reason you should just drop it.

Anyways... if you don't honor treaties then when you have wars, you can't expect to resolve them with peace treaties. If people can't trust your word how can they make a peace treaty with you?

You... and me a little... ""Just don't be congratulating yourself before the job is done ok?" The job is getting done and when will the job be done? When you sitting in America, sitting in judgement are happy with it?"

Just me by myself... When will the job be done? I don't know. You tell me. Is it done already? Are you happy with it? Does it matter if you're happy but the other side isn't? Did I miss something again?

You... ps: you have expressed you wish not to be known as american. Are you now deciding this for an entire race? You mention New Zealander and Maori as though the two are mutually exclusive.

Me... First of all I don't think indian people are a race. They are a collection of people just like Europeans or Africans or Asians. They speak many different native tongues and have different cultures and heritages but they have one thing in common. They have all been dispossessed of their land and resources by European imperialists aka colonists. I think the Maori also share this little problem.

So aren't New Zealanders and Maori different? I think maybe the Maori have a different name for the islands don't you? I know I have a different name for America and I know a few other people who also have different names for America and maybe even no name.

And I don't recall anybody asking if it was ok to call the land 'America'. They just started doing it just like they just showed up wanting to know what's for dinner? And just taking what they wanted without even asking.

So what would you do if the situation was reversed? What would you do if somebody moved into your house and started eating your food and watching your tv and playing with your computer like it was their property? And gave you a name they liked? Would that be ok with you? And if you weren't ok with it and complained, would you like it when someone said you were incapable of seeing the world in any other terms except your own? Would you value that person's opinions and just capitulate?

I don't think so... do you?

"I don't think so... do you?"

I think you're not stupid so you must be missing my point on purpose.

"So Apparition... this is how you answer for the legislative betrayal of the treaty?"

No - this is how I ask you final questions because as I stated I can see a point anymore to an argument with you. You know that's what I was doing because that is what I said.

I will quote my self again ""You speak like democracy is a bad thing. What would you rather we use.""

"
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The Posting to which you are replying is from lilithcookie
So Apparition... this is how you answer for the legislative betrayal of the treaty?

You... "Here's a fact for you. A little over 1000 years ago there was no human presense here what so ever. Then there was a culture here. Then there was a colonising force of polynesians who later became called the Maori. Are they somehow exempt from all you anger at colonisation?"

Me... No I don't excuse it but that's not the point. European colonists made the treaty with Maori then did everything in their power to undo it. They put nothing in the treaty abrogating it if the Maori had been colonist themselves so why is it so important now?

You... "You speak like democracy is a bad thing. What would you rather we use. The Maori used to keep slaves of each other (I know that stopping slavery is a relatively recent thing in America). Do you think that is a good idea?"

Me... No it's not a good idea but that's also not the point. Once again European colonists made the treaty with Maori then did everything in their power to undo it. They put nothing in the treaty abrogating it if the Maori were found to be slaveholders so why is it so important now?

The Cherokee were slaveholders just like their anglo neighbors in Georgia. That doesn't excuse the institution for either people but neither does it justify Andrew Jackson abrogating the treaty with the Cherokee that Congress had made and the Supreme Court had upheld. And he did not attempt to justify it that way because it would have been hypocritical for a slaveholder to try to justify the thing that way.

"You've maybe cleverly concealed where you come from although you don't identify yourself as indigenous to the islands so maybe there's slaveholders in your heritage too eh? And maybe for that reason you should just drop it."

The rest of the world (not being as socally backward as America) had out lawed slavery by the time NZ was being colonised again. You do things like dismiss the ogigional people here as "moa hunters" and now suggest that I'm decended from slave holders, thereby showing more so why an argument with you is pointless when added to the fact that you still avoid questions.

"Me... No I don't excuse it but that's not the point."

Then what is the point. Are you saying that extermination is preferable. A treaty may have been treated badly but at least it can still be set late. There is no turning back from genocide.

I already said that keeping the treaty is the point... about a gazillion times now. Are you dense or what App?

You started this with the assertion that parliments were better for this sort of thing. Ok... show me. Not with some political science BS but show how the Maori are better off because they'd dealt with a parliment rather than a Congress and a President and a Supreme Court.

I had my doubts and expressed them with the list of legislative violations of the Treaty of Waitangi. But you have yet to address the Waitangi treaty specifically so no wonder you can't seem to get the response out of me that you want. I mean how hard can it be huh?

It sounds from the other stuff I'm hearing that the treaty wasn't honored very well so now there's a movement for reform along the lines of the stuff going on in Australia, the United States and a few other places. Do you support that movement or not?

If you don't then that's where your other arguments might come into the discussion, which are btw practically the same arguments we get in the states just so you understand why I get a little annoyed. But for you they're probably brand new and innovative, not to mention clever and brilliant.

Ok... so where does that leave us. With a discussion of whether or not democracy is a bad thing? Is that the point I'm missing? Which democracy are we talking about then? Yours?

Ok... yours is great... obviously... you like it so what's the dispute huh? Is that your point that I'm deliberately missing because I'm more interested in what the dispossessed people say than what you're saying because you can't or won't address their specific complaints? Well sorry about that. Like I said before I really wish I could meet your standards but I don't think I can get quite that confused even deliberately.

I don't think you ever had anything to offer here and now it ought to be pretty clear to even slow learners like me.

One more thing... and I apologize for not seeing it before maybe because nothing was done to point it out to me and I'm kind of slow as we already know.

You... The rest of the world (not being as socally backward as America) had out lawed slavery by the time NZ was being colonised again. You do things like dismiss the ogigional people here as "moa hunters" and now suggest that I'm decended from slave holders, thereby showing more so why an argument with you is pointless when added to the fact that you still avoid questions.

Me... Don't you mean Great Britain had outlawed the slave trade? That's a very far cry from "the rest of the world had outlawed slavery" because the rest of the world didn't and still hasn't btw. But that sort of illustrates just how incredibly parochial YOUR view of THE REST OF THE WORLD really is.

I used to be married to somebody from a tribe the French and Anglos used to call Sioux and still do sometimes and that term is perjorative btw... in Ojibwa. I'm Weminuche and Mexican... that's Ute and Mexican in case you needed to know. So what does that have to do with anything? Are you going to find some perjorative allegation in my heritage or the heritage of my ex to further obfusgate the discussion?

Because you are the one avoiding the questions or more accurately the answers you don't like. On questions of the proper allocation of land and resources that are left to people after the rulers take their cut there really can't be any compromises with people such as you. Give them a little and they take everything. That's been the rule for over 5 centuries and it's still the same kind of rule and the kind of same rulers.

So yeah... there's no reason to continue this discussion at all.

"So yeah... there's no reason to continue this discussion at all."
Well duh - I said that already I don't really need you to say it.

You still avoid whats been said about moriori (embarrased? - dismissing origional people as moa hunters)

then you suggest that my ancestors were slave owners and then make the comment below. The "discussion" was over long ago if it ever existed beyond your ranting.

"Are you dense or what App? "

"I had my doubts and expressed them with the list of legislative violations of the Treaty of Waitangi." - what a load of cr*p. you made a one sided list with comments underneath the acts. What you wrote would bait anyone, and I got hooked.

I think people can judge for themselves who's embarrassed and who's discussing and who's ranting and who got hooked, don't you?

Not that it matters who did any of these things because the discussion was about the Treaty of Waitangi and the legislative violations of it not somebody's reaction to the allegations.

So thanks for nothing.

Anyone else want to comment?

"the discussion was about the Treaty of Waitangi and the legislative violations of it not somebody's reaction to the allegations."

So the discussion was what YOU decided it was How American of you

Tadsatduck have you got anywhere?

However far you've gotten - for the sake of argument would you say that your government is mostly a 2 party system?

Depending on your answer I have a theory

Yeah ain't it American of me alright... you bet. Except for me America is a foreign country... about as foreign as you can get.

So I can't wait to hear your 'theory' about the two party system. That oughta be a worth few laughs. So are you trying to compensate for something or what?

Will you all please grow up? And take this thread back to where it used to be?

Right on governor... I just think American films are foreign too.

Now if we all lived in New Zealand... well I bet it'd be way more crowded don't you?

And American films would still be foreign and would have to be close captioned for the perceptually impaired or for people who couldn't understand action packed dialogue... and how it pays to be a dummy with a gun... or why you have to do the same film over and over with different titles until people figure out it's the same film with different titles and get bored and decide what they really wanted was another film sort of like it with a different but similar title because that's all there is to watch anyways.

And do you really keep Zeppelins? As pets or what?

Lilith, Burma is now called Myanmar, which is a name that should NOT be used! John Pilger wrote about it in one of his most recent books - Myanmar is a name inflicted on the country by its military dictatorship, apparently in order to escape public opprobrium and a bad reputation. That shows they're sensitive to how they look, and can be pressured.