h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Surely the bombing of public bars, pubs and restaurants in the middle of London counts as attempted - and actual - mass murder of innocent civillians?

Haven't the IRA done that several times over the years?

I think you are being pendantic.

Mass Murder as in the scale of poisoning a water supply, compared with pub bombings?

Either way, you think that any western terrorist organistion, with its support base growing ever drastically smaller, would attempt such a thing because they were in the killing business already?

Just look at what is happening to Al-Queda now. They commited mass murder, and the gloves are off.

And I think you are being flippant.

When do you think a multiple-murder become a mass-murder?
Only when it is of the same order of magnitute as the worst cases?

I think the scale speaks for itself.

And also the retalations speaks for itself to.

That is the difference.

Quick point:- The IRA have tried to get hold of Bio-Chemical weapons so they clearly thought it would be worth it.

I seem to remember, years ago, a shipment of small missiles was intercepted on their way to the IRA. SWomeone probably remembers more details than I do.

This is a very informative article. It was an interesting how an SAS article turned into an IRA debate

If you are thinking of the arms that were shipped to the IRA from Colonel Gaddafi, then here is a quick recap. This is information from an SAS book that I have,

Four shipments of arms had managed to get through to the Provos, which in total equalled 150 tonnes. These shipments were dropped off at a small beach near Near Arklow in County Wicklow, 50 miles south of Dublin.

Shipment 1 - August 1985 - Shipname: Casmara - 70 tonnes of arms, including seventy AK47 assault rifles and a consignment of Taurus pistols.

Shipment 2 - October 1985 - Shipname: Casmara now renamed Kula - 10 tonnes of arms, including 100 AK47s, 10 machine guns, and 70 boxes of ammunition.
NOTE: At a different rendezvous, a few miles of Malta's twin island Gozo, security forces intercepted 14 tonnes of arms, including 4 Eastern block SAM-7 launchers and missiles.

Shipment 3 - October 1986 - Shipname: Villa - 107 tonnes of arms, including more SAM-7 missiles.

Shipment 4 - October 1986 - Shipname: The Eksund (230 tonnes) - This shipment included ... 20 SAM-7s, 1000 AK47s, 600 grenades, 10 heavy duty machine guns,anti-tank guns, Beretta machine guns, 50 tons of ammunition and 2 tons of Semtex-H. This ship had also been booby trapped.

The first three shipments had made it through to Ireland, but The Eksund had been captured. Makes you wonder just how many other shipments have managed to get through eh? Maybe the IRA are just stockpiling for a future date. I suppose we will find out eventually...

I think that any discussion on the SAS always invariably turns into a discussion of the IRA. With most conflicts abroad finshed (or at least there are not as many as there used to be), the SAS are more likely to be employed intelligence gathering against the IRA.

They have done that job for 27 years or so (since 1976, although the IRA thought that the SAS were in Ireland before that.), that it is pretty definite that they would be deployed back in Ireland when there is peace elsewhere.

Well, having read that whole string of replies, it's pretty clear things went off topic. Let me add my two cents real quick. First off, political will is just another term for determination. A terrorist organization cannot, by definition, have a political will, as they're not a political party. That's why they're a terrorist group and not a government organization. The PIRA has a political wing, yes, and we've seen how effective Sein Fein is as a political movement. Every second day, they're apologizing for some breach of the various peace accords they've signed. I read every day about disarmament, and other such movements, but the fact that the basis behind Sein Fein is a terrorist organization makes the credibility of what they do suspect.
When you think about the fact that every government has sponsored 'freedom fighters' (another politically correct phrase which means terrorist) of one stripe or another, every government can readily supply aid and assistance to any group of that nature. And most terrorist groups received assistance from one government or another. Most notably, the former Soviet Union supplied numerous groups with explosives, weapons, training, and logistical support. Countries like Libya, Chad, Iran, Iraq, and a few other countries have also participated in assistance programs. No matter what a terror group does, they can always find support somewhere. Even in today's age of "Kill the Terrorist", there are nations who provide tacit support to terrorist organizations, even when the most powerful military in the world has declared war on these organizations.
That having been said, the concept behind the movie in question is a good one, although, as it's been pointed out before, not practical. Yes, a small team can secure a facility that large if they're trained properly (and the Marines who make up Force Recon companies are trained that way, just as most elite forces are). The idea that VX would be that accessible is not. Nerve agents, and all like WMD, are highly secured. Nobody would be able to get hold of enough to seriously threaten a major urban population. You might be able to synthesize a chemical weapon, or maybe even a biological weapon if you have enough lab skills, but you'd likely kill yourself in the attempt. That and the dispersal system they had in the movie was completely imaginary. A chemical weapon is used in what's called a binary round fired out of an artillery weapon. Two halves are placed into the shell casing and sealed together. The artillery round is launched, and in-flight, the two component chemicals are mixed (I'm not sure of the exact process here), the round explodes in an airburst and spreads the poison. The effect is like mist or a light rain, depending on wind patterns and the size of the barrage (because you never fire one by itself). The old doctrine from the Soviet Union, and I use them only because they have the most extensive doctrine in chemical weapons use, called for a barrage of no less than fifteen minutes, using the equivalent of an entire artillery regiment (approximately seventy two guns of various calibers) to attack on a divisional front. The total amount of chemical weapon used is approximately twelve liters, mixed. It's all about the delivery system, as with any weapon. You can have the best ammunition in the world, but if you can't get it on target, it's a paper weight.

Okay, so it was more like a quarter than two cents.