h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Final Fantasy 7 is many things, but it isn't a rolplaying game. It also isn't any more final than the last six, but that's neither here nor their.

It's a dungeon hack, very like to Nethack or Angband, but with prettier... alright, I'll admit with _much_ prettier graphics and some very slick cutscenes. You explore, you fight, that's about it. You make next to no decisions about or for the characters, only controlling their movement and combat manoeuvres. All major plot developments take place in cutscenes and full-motion videos which you have no control over.

I have other issues with the game as well. For one I think the fights get incredibly tedious very fast. Ninety percent of the time seems to be spent with everyone just standing around doing nah-theeng, and while the giant space dragon flying down and blasting the enemy with his atomic flame breath is damned impressive to look at, it's a long animation and is pretty old by the fourth or fifth time you use the spell and frankly the end result is often less spectacular than the build-up suggests (and how does that space dragon reach a battle five miles below the surface of the earth, itself covered by a massive roof-structure, without leaving a hole?).

I also hate the fact that if you die before you reach a save point you have to go back and trawl through thirty minutes of repetitive fight action _again_, when you only just managed to beat that bloody detached des-res with all mod cons (I swear to god, you get attacked by housing; what's up with that?) the first time round.

But that's my issues with the game, and I do understand that there are people who play it nigh compulsively, even if I am completely unable to understand _why_ they do this.

The article seems pretty kosher, aside from the roleplaying thing.

The Prophet

P.S. - Yes, I have played the game; I got bored after a few hours when I couldn't progress with the plot because there was a housing estate getting all up in my shiz-naz every five paces.

Well, with that defenition of a role-playing game, the only true RPGs out there are online MUDs like Gemstone III and Dragonrealms... but I think if you want a stand-alone game with actual graphics and a plot, FF7 is just about as close as anything has gotten so far. But that's just the humble opinion of a 'compulsive' Final Fantasy series fan...

Marc

I understand your frustrations - some of the save points were far too far apart, but the skill in the game was adapting battle tactics to suit the enemy. That's why there were so many spells or action options. No enemy was too difficult once you spotted its weakness.

But whatever it's merits and failings, Final Fantasy isn't a roleplaying game. It isn't even close. Computer role-playing games all ultimately suffer from restriction of choice: if it wasn't programmed, you can't do it. I'd imagine a similar problem arises in MUDs in that the game isn't programmed to cope with players trying to gang up on an enemy, hold him down and force-feed him fricaseed warg (just to take an example off the top of my head).

Now I accept that you like Final Fantasy, and even that you fid sufficient diversity to be interested in all sixty-nine games or however many there are. But if we define roleplaying games as - let's say for argument's sake - a game in which you play a role, Final Fantasy is not one. You control an icon, you don't play a role. The role is entirely pre-programmed.

The Prophet.

But whatever it's merits and failings, Final Fantasy isn't a roleplaying game. It isn't even close. Computer role-playing games all ultimately suffer from restriction of choice: if it wasn't programmed, you can't do it. I'd imagine a similar problem arises in MUDs in that the game isn't programmed to cope with players trying to gang up on an enemy, hold him down and force-feed him fricaseed warg (just to take an example off the top of my head).

Now I accept that you like Final Fantasy, and even that you fid sufficient diversity to be interested in all sixty-nine games or however many there are. But if we define roleplaying games as - let's say for argument's sake - a game in which you play a role, Final Fantasy is not one. You control an icon, you don't play a role. The role is entirely pre-programmed.

The Prophet.

I wasn't really frustrated; I was bored. I would have been frustrated if I'd had sufficient interest in the plot to carry on, but I didn't so I just stopped.

Sorry about the double post of my last message by the way. Browser troubles.

The Prophet.

Oh, I agree that you never really make decisions in single-player RPGs, but until they come up with a way of programming every possibility into a game, nothing will be truly 'role-playing' by that defenition. However, when one has a part in a play or movie, it is said that he is 'playing a role', and must stay 'in character'. However, he still must stick to the script. 'Role playing' is taking on a person's identity other than your own, right? What you're looking for is a game where you can make your persona any kind of person you want, or to try to put yourself into the character. These RPGs are more like books or movies... the plot will continue the way the author(or programmers) designed, but in a good one, you still find yourself being drawn into the world and your character's mind.

Do I sound defensive? Sorry...

Marc

I don't know about defensive; maybe a bit. I'm not sure why though. I'm not saying that Final Fantasy is _bad_ because it's not a roleplaying game. I personally think it's very dull, but not because it's not a roleplaying game, just because it's dull.

And while an actor is playing a role, the viewer is not. From the performer's perspective _making_ a film could certainly be considered a very limited form of roleplaying, especially with a director who allows room for the cast to make suggestions, ad lib and interpret dialogue as seems right for the character. But for the audience it certainly is not roleplaying, however involving the film and the playing.

And in something like Final Fantasy you have even less control over your character's choices than an actor has over his. If you ever have a decision to make it's usually binary, and has an extremely limited effect on the progress of the game. You have fundamentaly no control over the characters' destinies unless you choose to have them make all the wrong combat moves and die.

Why does it matter to me? Well, basically because it causes a fundamental misunderstanding of what a real RPG is. People who've seen Final Fantasy think that a tabletop RPG would be that without the pretty pictures, which is entirely wrong. Well, OK; in some cases it isn't, but that's bad roleplay gaming, and I can't think anyone would want to emulate that.

The Prophet.

Fair points - and I especially agree that any computer-based game, whether rpg or any other genre, is going to be finite. Most rpgs allow you to play aggressively or diplomatically, with metal or magic - how much more latitude can they reasonably offer?

Dull? In places - but the highlights kept me going. My game got wiped when I was past halfway (I think) so I never finished it. That did p**s me off! Couldn't be arsed to play all those hours again, even if it meant missing the ending. Haven't bothered playing any others....

Yeah, I guess we'll just have to put up with the limitations of computers today for the time being... Zeb, too bad you quit, by the way, the ending kicks quite a bit of ass. But the fun I got out of the game was really in watching the story progress--seeing the end was just a nice bit of closure. Like I said before, it's like reading a good book...

Marc

I don't know about a good book...

My main problem with the story was that I hated all of the characters, especially the self-absorbed, big-haired central character. That and the names were all really terrible. I changed them to the titles of Akira Kurosawa films, so imagine my annoyance when there isn't room to call the big dog-thing Throne of Blood. Probably a good thing I stopped, since I was about out of films.

Besides which, since it was totally linear, I'd have rather just read the book, instead of having to trawl through those bloody fight scenes over, and over, and over again.

The Prophet.

Oh! How can you hate Cloud? He's just a bit cocky, and given to psychotic episodes. But is that really so wrong? Of course I changed the names, though... Duncan McCloud with the big-ass sword, Mr. T, and so on...

Marc

Okay, so the game is linear, but what do you expect? A game where you can just do what ever you want? The technology isn't there, and probably won't be for the next 25 years! I seriously doubt that if you don't like games as "linear" as this one, you will like any other game. The few games that have a story, and one that is not set, still have their limitations. Even, MUDs and MMORPGs usually have limitations on how you can affect the story line. Granted, the limitations are small (you can't kill everybody, you can't swim, etc.) but they are still there. In fact, if you are even a part of one of these games, you become part of the story, regardless of if you follow the storyline. In storyline games, there are usually two outcomes: you fail, or you don't. Even though there are a few with noticably different endings (Myst has 4, Riven has 9) they are rare. If you find a well-produced, decision-filled, single-player game let me know.

But I'm not saying that FF is a bad single-player computer game because of its linearity, I'm saying that it is not a roleplaying game, and shouldn't be called one.

The Prophet.

I would like to comment on your entry on the game final fantasy 7, your entry was nothing less of slaging it off, final fantasy is a wonderfull game, even if you do not like role playing games (and yes its a rpg not a "dungen hack") you have too see that it is one of the best rpgs ever. You say "You explore, you fight, that's about it." that may be true but you also say " I got bored after a few hours" the 1st part of game (like most rpgs) are dull and boring but if you did not know there are 3 discs! 3! yes 3, did you really think a game with 3 discs is going to be a fight only game, its got story, and lots of it. By the end of the 1st disc you will be hooked on the plot, its very deep and can have most people get tears in there eyes! it also says in your entry "All major plot developments take place in cutscenes and full-motion videos which you have no control over" what did you think you can do? control what happens in the fmv's? Final fantasy 7 was and is the best rpg ever, the fights are well laid out, the plot is one of the best in the final fantasy saga. There is one more thing I would like to say before I end this, you talk about the "space dragon" (its called buhammet) this is one of the summons you can use in the fights, it comes down and fires like hell on the ppl below, yes, this WOULD make a big hole in the ground and blow up half the area you are in! but think about it, its playstation, if evey time u used buhammet the area you were in got blown up it would be plain stupid. You said you died by the houses? If you die in the game, try again, its a game after all, YOU DO DIE SOMETIMES if you did not it would be a pretty boring game lol.

-Tepus- (not Qoa as it may say)

P.S you may think I am slagging off YOUR entry but I feel like you have not said anything but buyest comments.

This isn't an entry, it's a forum post; a place for opinions, and I don't have a problem with you responding to my post.

That being said, I do like roleplaying games. But FF isn't one. There are no computer roleplaying games, except perhaps Ultim Online, Everquest and their ilk. What is called a computer rpg is a largely - or in FF's case completely - linear dungeon crawl with pretty pictures. The fact that the plot is expounded in fmv means that you have no control. No; I don't expect control of an fmv, but if something is going to be called a roleplaying game, you should be able to play a role, not just control an icon.

As for the opening being boring in all computer rpgs; that simply isn't a defence. in any form of writing the most vital section of a game, book, film or TV show is the first paragraph. If you don't have your audience by the short and curlies by then, you've lost them for good. Any opening needs punch.

And I didn't die by the houses, I got killed by the houses. The houses killed me. The frikkin' houses walked up, and with no explanation whatsoever as to - oh, say - why exactly a house would be walking around, let alone getting all rowdy and in your face, it would start trying to tap dance on the characters' faces. Frankly, it sapped the suspension of disbelief.

And I never complained that there wasn't enough fighting. There was far, far too much, because the fight system in FF is frankly incredibly boring. In a real rpg players take turns to make attacks in that way, but for the purposes of narrative you assume everyone's moving pretty much at once. Yet in FF, characters literally just stand there and wait to get belted. Moreover, nothing much different ever happened in the fights. After a while, it gets boring, and I really found myself wishing I could just get on with the plot without having to spend another five minutes fighting _another_ slew of incompetent henchlings first.

As for buhammet... Why make an attack that looks like it should be vapourising continents if it doesn't? Yes, it looks pretty, but seeing the animation time and again gets tedious, and you start to wonder why this tectonic-plate crushing attack actually does so little damage to whatever you're fighting.

And for trying again? I couldn't be bothered, because it meant going back through another fifteen boring fights against boring opponents.

And once more, I'll remind you, what you're responding to is a forum post, not an entry, and as such it is composed entirely of opinions, which are naturally biased.

The Prophet.

...if you got bored with the fighting part of FF7, then I hope to God you never tried to play FF8...

I loved 7, but 8 really is just plain monotonous at times, as your enemies get stronger at the same rate you do, so you not only fight a lot, you fight the same enemies a lot, and you never see any real progress...

This is for Prophet, hoping he hasn't unsubscribed from this conversation. (and that he's still around ^^ )

I read this conversation, and found it very intersting because it pretty much summed up a lot of what I thought about the FF series.

I've been looking for a good RPG for awhile (Suikoden, for Playstation, has been recommended by many people, but my quest to find this game has been unfruitful for several months now) but I've just got my hands on a copy of Fallout 2 (that's PC) and actually am very pleased with it.
It's got most of what an actual paper-based RPG has - a character sheet, characteristics & abilities, pretty good interaction with NPC's and (almost) total freedom of actions and movement (yes ! that means you can kill merchants instead of *buying* stuff from'em ! well, more than likely you'll then get lynched by the locals but what the hell).

Anyway, since you said "there are no computer RPG's" I was wondering whether you'd heard about Fallout and, if you did, why doesn't it qualify as an RPG ?

Don't know much about Fallout, no. I'll keep an eye out though, and if I ever do play it I'll let you know if I think it counts as roleplaying.

Not that I'm claiming my opinion is authoritative; just that I'll let you know if I agree with you.