h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

There was a knock at the door and when I answered it there were a couple of young men wearing dark coats and carrying small rucksacs. They were friendly and I invited them in. They refused a cup of tea saying they were not allowed stimulants. They told me about the Mormons and left a copy of the Book of Mormon and said they would come back in a week or so.
When they returned I said I had read much of the book but was unable to accept their doctrine and didn't wish to join. They went away and didn't bother me again.
But afterwards I saw a television programme which said that details of many people the Mormons visit are stored in their bombproof computer in a cave beneath a mountain near Salt Lake City. Is is this true? And if it is:
Is their some way I can check if my name is in the Mormon computer? Is there some way I can have my name deleted if it is there?

That's quite a scary idea, and I think you're very right to be concerned. I hope you get the answer to your questions, and if it's true, I hope they can honour your request.

I think the idea is based on a religious quote that says that only those whose names are in the book (i.e their computer) will be raised from the dead at the last judgement. Creepy, isn't it?

Yes, quite creepy. Always thought it'd be up to God to decide. Sounds like a great way to secure your place in the afterlife.

okay, sorry to wreck the fantasy of that idea, but it really isnt true. the only names that are put onto computers and records are those of actual members of the church and names submitted by members for genealogical work only. dont worry!

Sounds better. Though I'm not sure if I'd be happy even if I was a member. Dunno if I'd want my details stored in a big computer somewhere with who knows who accessing it.

rosencrantz I'm not so sure - it was reported, possibly even on a Beeb prog (although wouldn't swear to that) that they'd downloaded whole towns and villages from the electoral roles where they'd been doing their thing - you know those clean shaven guys with the little black rucksacks who always go round in twos.

You never know. I know we've had Mormons at the door and they've clearly checked the electoral register or something coz they've known our family name.

sorry, but that really cant be true. someone must have referred you to them, cos they dont check the electoral register. these guys (or women) want to tell you about the Church, but they won't hound you forever or force you to join or anything. i'm a member by the way.

Well ok if you're a member you should hopefully know what they do. I'd be worried if you didn't. It still does seem a bit weird. Maybe it was an idea they came up with for a way in round my area or something.

This thread is among the strangest thing I've ever read. People are willing to believe (and say) the weirdest things about others when they don't know anything about it. And then when someone does know about it and corrects the weird belief they still continue to question whether it is true and what it could mean.

I remember as an LDS missionary in scotland back in 1992, someone wanted to prevent us bringing another woman we were teaching to church. When i asked "why?", she said that she "knew" what we were going to do with her! She went on to say that we would bring her to church, drug her, and then bring her through our underground tunnel from England to Utah, America (This was before the euro tunnel was built and yet we were supposed to have a 'secret' tunnel connecting Britain and North America!) Then she said that after my mission I would use this poor woman for breeding! I nearly started to laugh! I couldn't believe that someone would believe such a thing.

Of course, we need to be careful as there are evil people and organisations out there... but I couldn't believe anyone would think this about us! We can't stop every rumour and convince every person that we are telling the truth. But we can be open, honest and truthful with them.

Anyway, I continue to be amazed a how much people 'know' about us that is false and how little they know about us that is true. We send missionaries around to let them know but most people don't want to even listen. Then they wonder why what they believe about us is wrong or sounds weird.

The gospel doesn't require us to be anything other than normal. There is nothing weird about the Lord Jesus Christ or those who truly represent him.

Though do you not agree that a lot of rumours have some basis in fact somewhere? Fair enough, people blow them up and exaggerate things as they pass them round, but something started it off.

OK, so it's a bit inconcievable for there to be a tunnel under the Atlantic and that LDS members drug people and send them through it. Never heard that one before.

You have to admit that some LDS methods kinda scare people at times. I live round the corner from an LDS curch and you can spot the members coming due to their dress. We've had people call to the house looking for someone with the same surname but different first name, just to get you talking. I've been walking down the street and passed members who'll try and stop you as you pass. It's a bit intimidating.

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That's a point I agree with, but I'm not a Mormon. To me, it doesn't seem normal to wear a uniform to church, or to jump on people as they walk to work. You have to be the individual God made you to be, and to start with those in your circle at work, in your family etc. I don't believe for a moment that he intends our outreach to intimidate and scare people into converting.

Dear Not panicing yet,

Yes I do agree with you "that some LDS methods kinda scare people at times", sometimes including the young LDS missionaries themselves! It is difficult to stop and talk to people on the street. Only the young missionaries (who serve for a total of 2 years as 19-20 years old men or 21-22 years old women) do this kind of thing. Of course, some may be more intimidating than others!

Of course, the reason behind this is the same as when Jesus sent out missionaries to spread the message during and after his mortal ministry. There is something to share worth hearing. We feel that God has spoken to a prophet in our day and what he has said is worth hearing. He has also commanded us to share it. These young missionaries are actually called directly by a prophet of God to do this work.

Most members would not knock on doors or stop people in the street. They, as you suggest, "start with those in [their] circle at work, in [their] family etc." I think it is important not to scare people, but sometimes that does happen. Of course, it happens more when people hear such (false) scary rumours about us as started this thread. This is one reason we attempt to share our beliefs. That way, people have heard directly from a reliable source what we believe. Those who do tend not to be scared anymore.

The only thing that truly converts people to Christ is the Holy Ghost, and he is known as the "Comforter". So the spirit should not scare anyone.

As for a uniform at church.. we don't have that. We do wear our sunday best as a sign of respect for God. Young male missionaries wear a suit and tie and are identified with badges. The Sister Missionaries are modestly dress and also have an identifying badge. But that is the closest you get to a uniform at church! Missionaries are only one small group of LDS membership.

Thanks for your reply. My initial post was one of shock and surprise - but sometimes I feel like people are talking about us when we are in the room instead of talking to us! I think we can be very open, honest and friendly. Some do that better than others.

I'm glad to hear you say that most LDS don't do the knocking on doors/intimidating stuff. And I know a lot of churches do have a "Sunday best" dress code. Though I know a lot of people who have found this to be stuffy, old-fashioned and off-putting, regardless of denomination.

The church I go to has quite a relaxed, less formal dress code. Not that people turn up in mini-skirts or anything like that, but jeans etc. Think a large part of the reason is that God can see you all the time, not just during a Sunday service, so dressing smart can seem quite odd. And we have lots of people at our church who've been hurt in traditional churches and this helps them relax back into a church environment. Also, I've seen it where what you wear can become more important that the stare of your heart. I heard of a case in a local churh (not LDS though) where the elders debated whether to give one lady full membership or communion because she sometimes wore trousers to services.

You have to admit, though, that the suits and badges worn by the missionaries can be a bit intimidating. While it can be great at bringing identity, it can also have people crossing the road to avoid you. Though perhaps if there are so many rumours, then it wouldn't be so bad.

So do you mind my asking how you became LDS? Did you grow up in the church or were you converted later in life?

Hi again,

The truth is we do have people who come to church in jeans and we also have people who come in traditional african dress. I don't think they feel unwelcome. I certainly hope not. I think you are right that the state of the heart matters more to God than what we are wearing. Of course, what we wear and how we adorn these bodily temples of ours does reflect the feelings of our heart towards life etc. The choice to dress in a respectful manner is understandable in that light. However, "sunday best" differs from person to person, so we should be glad people are in church and that they feel happy to be there, whatever they may be wearing.

In the Old Testament, God dressed Adam as he left the garden, with a coat of skins as a covering. Jacob dressed his son Joseph with a "coat of many colours" after which Joseph began to have inspired dreams. In the New Testament, Christ gives the parable of the wedding garment, which indicates the importance of being properly dressed for sacred occasions. All of this shows that, in certain circumstances, God can expect and we can desire to dress in a special way to show respect and gain revelation. But there is no compulsion about this. They is plenty of choice.

You ask how I became LDS. I was raised (though I was not born into) the church and I was converted later in life. That is, I came to the point where I wanted to know for myself whether God, my Heavenly Father, lived, whether Jesus Christ was the Son of God and whether Joseph Smith was a prophet (or messenger) of God. I pondered, I prayed and I practiced living the restored gospel. That is when I came to know for myself that it was true. Other friends, also raised in the church, did not find out for themselves and so left the church. Being raised in this church does not automatically keep you active in it.

But now I know and so I worship as a Latter-day Saint. It blesses my life greatly. I admire good people, of all religions, who sincerely practice their faith. But I do feel that God has more to give than most in the world know. Many of the problems we face in life are answered in the restored gospel. The Plan of Salvation is one of the most beautiful things that Joseph Smith made known about what God can do in our lives.

I appreciate your question. I hope the answer makes sense.

Thanks for sharing that. Glad to hear that you gave your decision some thought. You hear of people who've been brought up in a church and so kinda assume that they are Christian or whatever, and assume that coz they go to church they're fine, but never make a definate, thought through commitment or anything.

Just thinking that one of the problems whehn it comes to churches like LDS or Jehovah's Witness is that on one hand they're quite close to general Christianity, but then they have these other books or beliefs that seem to throw things into a different realm. Like there's the Book of Mormon, or I'd heard that LDS believe that there's a set number who'll get into heaven at the end, but then their numbers increased over that so it had to be revised. OK, so not sure what the truth is about that second one, but it came from somewhere.

Hi again,

You’re right that people often associate themselves with a particular religion only because they are raised in it. In fact, the labelling of young children as “Mormon”, “Catholic”, or “Protestant” etc is very unfortunate. Richard Dawkins believes it’s a form of child abuse. I think it tends to encourage people not to think about their own religion, question it, and then decide for themselves whether they want to stay in it. Of course, I do not think all religions are true – nor do I think you should automatically stay in the religion you were brought up in (even when you like it or it does much good). The question of truth is important. You and I probably agree that Christianity is true – though we may disagree as to what Christianity is.

People often confuse the Latter-day Saints (or “Mormons”) with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, though the truth is that any similarities are only superficial. The second belief you mention (about the limit on the number that will go to heaven) is usually attributed to them. I will let them speak for themselves as to whether they ever taught that or had to revise it. The Book of Mormon directly expresses the hope that “many of us, if not all, will be saved” in heaven. [2 Nephi 33:12].

There are some things we share in common with “Traditional” Christianity and many things that are different. The difference is what we seek to share. The belief that God continues to speak through prophets and that there is more scripture than just the Bible certainly sets us apart. The Book of Mormon (from which others give us the nickname ‘Mormon’) is ancient scripture form the New World, while the Bible is from the Old World. Both testify of Christ. Both were written by prophets. Both encourage us to do good. But the Book of Mormon “establishes the truth” of the Bible. This is important because in our day people either doubt the Bible or else argue over its meaning. These two witnesses (or both books) establish the word.

The Book of Mormon also provides “proof” that God hasn’t changed, that He can call prophets in our day, and that there is only one plan of salvation. This makes it worth reading. It is the keystone of our religion. It is the best thing to read to find out what the Latter-day Saints believe about Christ and his gospel. Some of what it teaches you believe already – but there is also truth that it restores or brings back – this “new” truth is what makes it really exciting.

Please don't think that I was saying that LDS and JWs are the same. I was just refering to that both are seen as like a different form of the Christian church with many similarities, but also some things that are strikingly different.

Both groups though are often looked at warily from those who aren't part of them. And some of the ideas and impressions people get about them, don't help. Like when I was at school, JW pupils were allowed to skip assembley and RE classes, which seemed odd it JWs are just another branch of Christians. I also once knew a JW bloke who told us they didn't celebrate birthdays, and I think even Christmas for some JW reason.

OK, I know that's not you, but there are similar seemingly odd things about LDS too.

You talk about how God reveals himself through prophets today. Are these people different to everyone else?

Maybe that's an odd question. You see, in my church, it's taught that God can and has revealed himself too and through everybody, ordinary people. We've had many occasions where God has spoken in various ways to different members of the church to impart healing, or hope or whatever to someone else.

Don't worry - I didn't think you were confusing LDS and JW's. I've heard all the same things about the JW's as you have heard. I also heard some of the things people say about the 'Mormons' that are based on hearsay. We need to go to the source in finding out what others believe, that's all I meant. It is a simple enough matter to ask them.

Joseph Smith said - "No man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations. The Holy Ghost is a revelator." Every one has an equal chance of coming unto Christ and receiving revelation from God. Prophets are merely the pattern for that. Of course, prophets serve as covenant spokesmen. Moses for example gave the Law of God to the people. When Christ came He announced a Higher Law to the people. In both case they represent God. Christ also had his apostles baptize people. He chose his servants to speak his words but promised that everyone could get personal revelation also. That is why he invited us to ask of God.

Similarly, The Book of Mormon contains a promise that we can ask of God and He will let us know, by the power of the Holy Ghost, that it is true. So all can get revelation. Of course, the church has prophets who lead it, speak the word of God to the entire people, and then ordain others to perform sacred ordinances (such as baptism). Individual revelation does not replace the need for institutional revelation. Both come from the same source and both sustain each other.

So we need both and we can get both. Prophets get revelation for the church (or the entire people) in the same way as I get revelation for myself, or my family. But they are not different spiritually from everyone else anymore that Moses or Peter etc where different from genuine followers of Christ in their own days.

Does that make sense? God speaks today. But He speaks in the same ways as he spoke anciently - through dreams, visions, angels, prophets, inspiration etc. He speaks to individuals and He speaks to large groups. He speaks, in fact, to anyone that will listen. That is the real question that modern prophets pose - are we willing to listen to everything that God says? Those who love Him, listen to Him.

As for false prophets, we can know them from true prophets. We can know them by their fruits. If the fruit of believing that a person is a prophet is to draw us closer to God, or help us understand Him and His plan more, or encourage us to obey and serve Him more then it is from God. Otherwise it is not.

What is really not possible is that He would no longer have prophets. We need living prophets just as we need a living God. These living prophets will be not different than past prophets and will ocassionally add to the canon of scripture. But they will also clearly mark the path of salvation, teach the law of God, and establish the true church (just as christ and his servants did).

Of course, God can and will confirm the truth of what He has said to everyone who is eager to know and prays in faith. In that way, I can get the same revelation as the prophets and so can you.

It is a beautiful plan as it preserves the justice of God as well as the order of His Kingdom. "By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" [Moroni 10:5]

I've npticed that the verses from the Book of Mormon seem remarkably similar to verses in the Bible. I know you said that the Book of Mormon was given to kinda give a more modern support to the Bible and show that it's still accurate and that god's still the same.

The Bible states that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13v8), and that there are loads of verses telling us that God never changes and that the Holy Spirit reveals things to us.

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Doesn't it say that in the Bible too??
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

It always surprised me that there's this second book, especially since what you've said about it seems to be things that are in the Bible in the first place. Are there things in it that the Bible doesn't mention? I'd heard from an LDS family who go to the church near me that the Book of Mormon was rarely taught from, and teaching was all from the Bible. Though perhaps it's just that church.

From your perspective, in what ways are LDS different to other Christian groups?