A Conversation for DEVON'S NEW FLAG

News

Post 341

parrferris

smiley - wowGood Heavens, I hear the flag - or more accurately perhaps the row with certain Cornish elements - is featuring on this morning's Today programme on Radio 4!

Meanwhile, the flag is flying over the Royal Castle Hotel in the centre of Dartmouth, and all the Lower Ferry tugs are bearing the car stickers on their wheelhouses. More of Kevin's work, I suspect.


News

Post 342

Plymouth Exile

I heard the bit about the Devon Flag on the BBC Radio 4 'Today' programme this morning (18/7/2003). It should be possible to listen to it online for the next few days by going to their web site:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/

At the time of writing this message however they are still displaying yesterdays programme in the 'listen again' section, but I expect this morning's programme will appear on the page soon.

They were interviewing Robin Ashburner and Prof. Philip Payton about the controversy between Devon and Cornwall about the Flag. Philip Payton was saying that it looked too much like the Cornish Flag when reproduced in black and white, and that St. Petroc was a 'Cornish' saint with a 'few' dedications in Devon. Robin Ashburner quoted from a Cornish source, which stated that St. Petroc should be left to Devon.

I E-Mailed the Today programme with the following:-

"Professor Payton was being a little economical with the truth when he stated that there were a ‘few’ dedications to St. Petroc in Devon, as there are in fact many more dedications to him in Devon than there are in Cornwall. Anyway, Cornwall has chosen St. Piran as its Patron Saint, so why the fuss about Devon associating its flag with St. Petroc?"

However, my comments were not used on the programme.

Plymouth Exile


Today programme audio

Post 343

Devon Editor

Hi all. We've made a Real Media copy of the audio from the Today programme. You can find it at the url below if you want to listen. Or on the flag page on the BBC Devon website. Cheers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/realmedia/bits/flag_devon.ram


Radio Cornwall Interview

Post 344

Plymouth Exile

I have just done an interview for BBC Radio Cornwall, to answer some points made by Professor Philip Payton. Philip complained that the Devon Flag was unoriginal and a copy of the St. Piran Flag when seen in black and white. He also said that Devon should have a flag which celebrates its Englishness as opposed to Cornwall's Celticness. I replied that Professor Payton must be very naive about flags to criticise one when viewed in black and white, and stated that in black and white the Cornish flag would look identical to the Welsh St. David's Cross Flag and that the Austrian Flag would look identical to the Argentinian Flag.

I also pointed out that the Devon Flag was chosen as a result of a democratic poll of Devonians. On the subject of Devon's Englishness, I stated that this was a misinterpretation of history, backed up by the latest DNA survey findings, which clearly showed that the vast majority of Devonians were of Ancient Briton (or Celtic) descent. The interviewer thought that my comments would really start the phones buzzing.

Plymouth Exile


Radio Interview

Post 345

Ozzie Exile

I have listened to the R4 broadcast - and Robin Ashburner certainly seemed to have done more research than Professor Payton - who hadn't even bothered to see the Devon flag in colour.

Incidentally - Prof Payton refers to first seeing the Devon Flag in a newspaper article in South Australia. 'Guilty as charged' your honour - although I don't think my article was 'anti-cornish' at all - it was entitled 'Don't Forget Devon' and appeared in a local newspaper in the same week as the 'Kernewek Lowender' - the world's largest cornish festival held every two years in a region about two hours north of Adelaide. They sometimes forget that many Devonians (as well as Cornish) emigrated here in the nineteenth century - as evidenced by mines such as 'Wheal Devon' just outside of the town of Kadina (interestingly Devonians used a Celtic word even then).

By the way.....and here is something trivial......do you know that it is very easy to have your own 'Devon Flag' screensaver??

All you need to do is.....

1 Save a copy of an image of the Devon Flag (or bumper sticker
image) onto your computer. Take it from my website if you want.

2 Assuming you use a (reasonably recent) version of Windows, go
into 'control panel' and select 'display' and then 'screen saver'.

3a Select '3D Flying objects' and then 'settings' and then
choose 'textured flag'. Then select 'texture' and link it to
your saved image (from 1 above). You may have to change that
image into a ".bmp" image first, but that should be easy.

You should now have an animated 'Devon Flag' screensaver!!

3b You can also select '3D Pipes', then 'settings' then
select 'textured'. Then - under 'select texture', link it to
your Devon design, and you will find the pipe maze looks pretty
neat - especially if your image is of the 'Devon Flag Bumper
Sticker' as the word Devon is evident on the pipes etc..

Not earth shatteringly important I know - but nevertheless it can look pretty good and will 'promote the cause'.



Devon Flag Designs

Post 346

Researcher 235069

I feel a trick has been missed here, as the flag does not reflect either the sun or the sea in the way that the North Devon District Council flag does (although why they have an off-set white cross as used in Scandinavia is a mystery).


Devon Flag Designs

Post 347

Plymouth Exile

Green, white and black were adopted because these are Devon's historical colours, and no one was keen on the Scandinavian off-set cross, as Devon has no history of Viking settlement such as occurred in Northern Britain.

Plymouth Exile


Devon Flag Designs

Post 348

parrferris

Researcher 235069 - The other problem with your suggestion is that the more complicated the flag design, the more expensive it is to buy, and therefore it's unlikely to 'take off'. A simpler design with a strong colour scheme is also generally more memorable, which may well be why this particular flag topped the polls.


Devon Flag Designs

Post 349

Ozzie Exile

Researcher 235069,

I think the North Devon Council Flag is a nice design. Colourful, bright, and with obvious symbolisim.

To my eyes it appears a 'marketing' flag rather than one representing identity - and this is fine because I am sure that is what it is intended to do.

Could we have a more 'colourful' and 'obviously symbolic' design?? Well, some very good designs were put forward, and the design from Barumite (which perhaps comes closest to this) was popular - it came a (distant) second in the deciding poll.

Against this I would point to some comments received (in the poll) which were to the effect that people wanted something that looked like a traditional flag, and that is ultimately what Devonians chose.


The Devon Flag

Post 350

Plymouth Exile

Following the recent fuss made about the Devon Flag by Cornish extremists, I decided to do a search on ‘Devon Flag’ at the Evening Herald web site and the following came up:-

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=98912&command=displayContent&sourceNode=98821&contentPK=6374288

The poor misinformed person, who wrote this, thinks that the cross on the Devon Flag represents St. Piran. He/she is obviously very out of touch, considering the fuss that has been made in the media regarding the association of St. Petroc with the flag. If he/she is not actually a Cornish Nationalist, than he/she is certainly quoting from the Cornish Nationalist Handbook, what with the usual nonsense about ‘ethnic cleansing of Celts from Devon in 936AD’ (the Cornish Nationalist Handbook is the only source where this mythical version of Devon’s history can be found). Perhaps we should be kind and prepare a revised ‘accurate’ edition of the ‘Handbook’ for them.

Plymouth Exile


The Devon Flag

Post 351

ryan_sealey

Im sure they would apreciate that smiley - smiley


The Devon Flag

Post 352

parrferris

smiley - laugh


The Herald Article

Post 353

Kerswell

The article Plymouth Exile refers to is part of a series.

The series of 'wity' repartee concerning various subjects relating to Cornwall appears to be no more than a platform for Cornish Nationalist views.

I don't have an objection to the Cornish having their say, but I do object to articles that misrepresent the truth, such as the claim of ethnic cleansing in Devon. I find this repugnant.

Is the Herald in danger of being captured by such groups (they certainly didn't want to help us much with the flag)

All of us have a mixture of genes in our heritage, some dating back to the Celtic era, some to Anglo-Saxons, and some beyond. To me what typifies a Celt is his (or her) culture, and the joy is "all can join".

Devon has a culture that is unique, but similar to Cornwall, especially eastern Cornwall. They know this and should get over it.


The Herald Article

Post 354

Ozzie Exile

I see this as an opportunity to get some publicity for the flag and for Devon's Celtic heritage - so I sent in a response to the Herald.

It will only appear in the 'letters' page (at best) but that is better than nothing. I can only suggest that those of you that think the same should send in your own response.

The way the Herald article was written I suspect that many readers would have switched off fairly early in the piece anyway (I would have)

I did wonder some time back whether the WMN had aligned themselves with the Cornish cause (because they assisted with promoting the Cornish Devolution petition) and I suppose the Herald is produced in the same building?

What do you others think?

If true - what else can we do to correct it? I would have thought the majority of Herald Readers would be Devonians, although obviously it covers both sides of the Tamar.


The Herald Article

Post 355

Plymouth Exile

I have just E-Mailed the following response to the Evening Herald:-

Dear Editor,

As an exiled Plymothian who likes to keep in touch, I frequently take a look at the Evening Herald web site. During my last visit to the site, I was disappointed to discover an article entitled “Happy Being English” (15th July); a spoof conversation between a Cornishman and a Welshman about the new Devon Flag. Where on earth did the writer get the idea that the design was a St. Piran Cross? The colours of the Devon Flag (green, white and black) are Devon’s county colours, and many flags have a white cross in their design, without claiming to be St. Piran Flags. As far as I am aware, no Devonian has ever made claim to St. Piran as a Devon saint, although as the Patron Saint of Tinners, his patronage would have been applicable to the Devon Stannaries. However, many Devonians have expressed the desire to associate the Devon Flag with St. Petroc (who has more churches dedicated to him in Devon than in Cornwall).

As for the suggestion that we Devonians should look into our own history, I would contend that Devonians know far more about their own history than the Cornish Nationalists do. There are no reputable historical sources, which state that there was an ‘ethnic cleansing of Celts from Devon in 936’. The only source for such unfounded misinformation is ‘The Cornish Nationalist Handbook’, which seems to contain a complete mythical history of Devon. I would therefore recommend that the Cornish Nationalists should get to grips with ‘real’ history, such as the recent DNA evidence, which conclusively shows that the descendents of the Ancient Britons (Celts) are predominant throughout the South West, and not just in Cornwall. There is no evidence of ethnic cleansing I am afraid, even though that will undoubtedly offend the Cornish Nationalists’ desire to be seen as ‘unique’.

When we Devonians feel the need for a mythical history, we are quite capable of inventing our own thank you very much. We have no need for Cornish assistance.

Bob Burns, Exiled Plymothian

I agree with Ozzie Exile that the WMN organisation is becoming increasingly sympathetic to the Cornish Nationalist cause, which seems to include the distortion of Devon history. So the people of Devon are being misinformed, even by their 'own?' local newspapers.

Plymouth Exile


Devon Flag

Post 356

Ozzie Exile

Just to let you know - I have updated my Devon Flag webpage to include a poem that Kevin Pyne sent me.

http://users.senet.com.au/~dewnans/Devon_Flag_Designs.html

I think its pretty neat!!


Devon Flag

Post 357

Davyth

What a wonderful poem that is, very moving and emotional

Davyth


Devon Flag

Post 358

Ozzie Exile

For those interested, I have sold almost 200 Devon Flag bumper stickers!

The sales analysis is as follows:

55% to addresses in Devon
22% to addresses elsewhere in the UK (none in Cornwall)
16% to addresses in Australia
7% to others (Ireland/USA/Canada)

Of those in Devon

57% are to EX postcodes
22% are to TQ postcodes
21% are to PL postcodes

The EX postcodes cover a large part of Devon, including North Devon (where there have been a number of sales) although there have also been a number in Exmouth and also in Exeter.

Some have suggested that the green colour has impacted the flag's appeal outside the 'Argyle' area, but it appears that the opposite is true (I can't imagine why??)

Nevertheless - interesting!


Devon Flag

Post 359

Ozzie Exile

With reference to the above posting (and for completeness) I should state that the distribution of sales does not include the order from BBC Devon (because I do not know where they will end up!!)

By the way, I came across the following website selling 'Devon Flag' product - t-shirts, mouse pads, hats (and bumper stickers).

http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=Devon_First

I can't vouch for the quality, but most of the products claim to be 'available now'!!


Devon Flag

Post 360

Frankie Roberto

That's because they print-on-demand. You can have any artwork printed onto most of those things, all you have to do is send in the graphic. Whoever does this gets a bit of commission on all purchases.

See http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/sell/


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