h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

must say I am more than dismayed with the reactions among some of my fellow planet members. Had this occurred at 10 Downing Street, Buckingham Palace or the Kremlin, I would have been equally horrified at such barbarism. And I would not have lost forever people very dear to me. I wish for you all to know that not every American wishes to bomb the hell out of the Middle East. Actually on the evening of 9/11, as I finally arrived at my home, saw my husband and held him close-so thankful he had not been at the Pentagon as I had feared- CNN showed the bombings in Afghanistan and both of us shouted almost in the same breath " NO, that’s not how to handle this!"

I hear WWII vets saying, no we are a nation of laws and justice, this is not the way to react. I am by no means a naive woman; of course I fully realize there are people in the world that detest my government. But somehow I assumed that this anger would not necessarily expand beyond the institution to individuals that were simply at the wrong place at the wrong time. How could anyone say those people deserved to die? I myself abhor the treatment that the government of Afghanistan has brought upon untold thousands of women. Do I wish to see Afghani people die because of their government’s policies? No.

How do I go about explaining to a nine year old that is full of love for every one and everything that surrounds her that there are people that hate her simply because her mother’s womb happened to be located in America the day she was born? " Yes dear, your ancestors came from those very same shores in about 1630 because they thought they’d give Virginia a go. Why yes, I do suppose they are all cousins after a fact, and no they don’t hate you personally." Having gone to great lengths to make certain that she has learned that people are to be judged by their actions, not their color, or religion or where they come from, how do I explain this? Having raised her to believe that yes there are people in this country that are just plain wrong. "Yes dear, the man in the white sheet with the swastika on his forehead is very wrong, very nasty and frankly nuts. But we ignore such people socially and pray they don’t reproduce. Then fight the right and proper way to ensure that people like him stay out of positions where they have any legal standing. No dear, we don’t arrest him. In this country he has the right to be a bloody loon and Mom would defend to the death his right to be a flaming moron-but that certainly doesn’t mean I have to agree with him."

The rationalization that we "deserved" this, as I have heard quite a lot in the past few days, is frankly abhorrent. Innocent people never deserve to die. Do I always agree with my government’s policies, no. Do you always agree with yours? Do we oft times get involved when we shouldn’t, of course. We’re screwed frankly either way. We involve ourselves in a conflict; we’re strong-arming the world. We choose to stay out of one and suddenly we’re vilified for standing by and letting others commit atrocities. I have however noticed that if there is a monumental disaster outside our borders, we’re usually right there trying to help. Has any other country EVER come to our aid during the many devastating natural disasters of the past 20 years or so? I think not. If so, please educate me as to when and where, I would be most interested.

This caricature of either the ugly ignorant American, or the bloodthirsty barbarian that gets tossed about is indeed grossly unfair. There are plenty of us that pray the world can come together and manage to live in harmony. Plenty of us that pray an ecologically sustainable economy can be created for the entire third world, so they too may be clothed, fed, housed and may never spend another day in fear for the most basic of human necessities. Bandying about national stereotypes is unfair and frankly grossly bigoted behavior. And yes, some of us even do learn a foreign language prior to travelling abroad.

There are untold thousands of kind, decent people in this country that have never harmed a soul by deed or by word whose lives have been devastated utterly. How dare you say they deserved it?

I have to agree with you on 90% of what you've written, America didn't deserve this carnage and no one should say they did.

The one area that I don't agree with you on is about America being the only country to assist with disasters in others. I spent 13 years in the forces in the UK and in that time we assisted in plenty of countries, with dissasters of all kinds, even in America and most of the time we worked alongside our American allies. America is a proud and very large country and usually does not require or ask for assistance from others, but I assure you that if I was recalled to service now to come and assist over there, I would!

I know how hard it is to explain this to a child, my son sat on my knee the first night crying, the pictures on the TV and all the talk that had been going on about war had really frightened him, it took me a while to reassure him that we were safe and that there wasn't going to be a war, I hope for everyones sake that this doesn't start one.

I'm glad your husband was safe and that you are together with your family, but my thoughts are with those who aren't.

Thank you for your kind thoughts. And yes, mine are very much with those who are missing, some of whom are dear friends still searching Manhattan hospitals in vain for loved ones not yet located. Or waiting for the Pentagon to tell them what they already know.

And yes, I must say if anyone has ever been there when we did require assistance, it was our friends in the UK. Not to demean your work in the least, my apologies, truly. But I'm sure you can appreciate that in many respects we do as a nation seem to feel oddly alone this week. I myself have always felt rather connected to the world as a whole and functioning organ, not today. I think that may well be part of my anger, over and above the patently obvious..because as silly as it may sound I really do think that our government aside, that we as a nation are compassionate and caring. And I normally let those who wish to rant do so in peace, I suppose today was simply not a good day for restraint on my part.

I do so hope your son is feeling better. In many ways this is one of the hardest things, to try and attempt to explain this insanity to a small child.

No need for an apology. Emotions are running high and we are all feeling it a bit this week, I too have sat and waited for news this week of friends and collegues, maybe it was the wrong time for both of us, but they always say that you say what you truely feel when you are angry.

Believe me you are not alone and its a shame that you can't see what the UK papers are reporting, it has been cover to cover on the nationals, weeklys and locals and the British people are all praying for and thinking of you all over there, I don't think anyone will ever forgive the people responsible for this, it has touched people the world over, America is not on it's own with this one, it has the backing of most countries, even Russia and thats never been heard of before.

Just take care and look after yourself and your family.

Hello She who must be obeyed.

I'm from the UK and one of the ACEs here at H2G2 - I'm furious that that posts that voice an "America deserved it" sentiment are being made here. As an American you have my sympathy for the tragedy your country suffered on the 9/11/

I have friends here who live and work in the New York area and I was concerned for their well-being as well.
(One of the H2G2 researchers was even *IN* the WTC when it was attacked)
Their is a great deal of sympathy here for the American nation but in the past few days there has been an up-swell in the number of inconsiderate and hateful postings.
The kind of anti-American sentiment you've seen floating around I want to emphasise *is not typical* of this site and please don't be put-off. There is *so much* else here to enjoy.

Try looking around:

On-Line newspaper (This week dedicated to the terroist attack)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/thepost

Groups and Societies page:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A616718

The Guide Entries to life, the Universe and Everything:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/index
http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/randomentry

Just try avoiding the front page talking point for now.
The best I can offer by way of consolation is a heart-felt apology and the promise that we are working on it.

Clive

My God Clive

Who was it, and are they ok???

BTW, hello again She Who Must. I'm another Brit, and I too am appalled at the callous nature of some of the postings here.Clive's right, there are many other parts of the guide! Check out my links page ( I put it in the welcome message I left you ) and you'll find some places full of friendly people.

My thoughts are with everyone affected by this tragedy, be they American or not.

erm - loonytoons, they've written an article for The Post, that's how I know and I was thinking specifially of Shea, who works around that area but thankfully not nearby.

Both a fine, if a little shaken.

Clive,

I agree with you whole heartedly, you only have to look around and you can see how much everyone is thinking of everyone affected by it, there is alot of love in h2g2.

May we all see peace and happiness once more.

Dear Clive,

Thank you for your kind words. As we all struggle back to some state of normalcy I think kindness and civility are all the more important. That person that just did something annoying may well have his or her mind on a lost loved one. The ripple effect has been quite astonishing.

But you are right, there is so much here to enjoy, which is what I shall do.

Dear She Who Must Be Obeyed,

It's quite alright. The tragedy brought a lot of few researchers onto the site, some with a lot of hurt and anger and some with wide ranging and occasionally strong opinions. Where these two met ocassionally it produced threads that were quite unnaceptable on site and in almost all cases in breach of the House Rules and so have been hidden pending moderation or removed from the site all together. The Italics ( or The Powers That Be ) are very keen to ensure that such inflammatory postings don't go unchecked. I apolgise on their behalf that you and others (for you were not alone in being offended) were subjected to that.

But enough of that. I am glad you've come back.
H2G2 is by far the best internet community I've ever known, we are all friends here ( no really we are - see our infamous Real Life meet-ups page, if you don't trust my good word! )http://www.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/A435791
If you ever need any help again don't hesitate to contact myself or any of the other ACE's.
My Space: http://ww.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/U113478
ACE's http://ww.bbc.co.uk/h2g2/guide/Aces

All better!

Yes, even those of us thousands of miles away go to the meets in spirit...See on my space, where I explain 'aka "paper lady"'

The folowing is just a thought, not an opinion--maybe the good ones had the good fortune to be released from this sticky world, and the bad ones deserved to die.
pierce.
philex

Can't say I agree with that because no-one deserves to die at the hands of terrorists, not least of which the members of the rescue services killed attempting to save the lives of those trapped inside the burning towers.

I just don't know..when your number is up, it's up. Clive you've been so precious! Really. (in southern girl talk that's the top of the ladder, can't go further)

So tell us Clive, does any body deserve to die at the 'hands'of a US launched retaliation attack,or is it prefeable to die by the hand of some freaked out US schoolkid on an armed killing spree, or what about death by lethal injection ordered by some demented judge who prefers to believe the evidence of the cleverest(most expesive) lawyer. And if your going to reply to this, would you mind putting a clear definition on the word 'terrorist'.

okay right I don't want this to become just another slanging match. With that caveat in place I suppose I should own up and admit it - I'm just a great big fluffy humanist at heart. I don't think anyone deserves to die. But I recognise human frailty where I see it - lord know's I'm as guilty of knee jerk emotional responces as anyone else. Of course I felt angered but what I saw.

Defining terrorist...hmmm - tricky. I'd probably get into a lot of trouble if I tried that off the top of my head so if you'll excuse me, I won't try to define a terrorist here however, I take your point that what I wrote before was unclear.

So to attempt and clarify my own position - I don't think anyone desrves to die and this is what I took you to mean that there was somehow a way to distinguish between who did deserve it and those who did not.
I am not special I hold no special into human action.
People are people and sometimes they do terrible and stupid things to one and other but do I think anyone deserves to die be it under a death penalty (which, as it happens, I also don't agree with) or murder perpetrated on any scale. Will I feel at all righteous or sated at the hundreds who will surely die in a U.S led retaliatory strike. Will that solve anything? To my mind it simply adds to the sum total of violence in the world and after the events of last week who could say that that was desirable?
I am not American, I have no patriotic drum to beat. I am though fearful of what the U.S might do and where that may lead. I am not disspasionate - and though I have no connection to the events in New York and elsewhere I still feel 'upset' by what happened but do I think anyone deserves to die?
No, no and again no.

Clive.

As usual I'm rather late in picking up threads -- apologies if I'm stumbling around in your nice flower bed...

A few things have popped up in my mind reading through the backlog here -- but first things first:

My heartfelt condolences to anybody who died or were hurt and to anybody who knew anybody hurt in the terrible happenings on Sept 11. Noone deserves to die that way and nobody with a functioning human heart or brain should do things like that.

Also, it's for me a certain thing that the US as a country did not "have this coming" -- nothing in this world IMO can justify this kind of atrocity!

On the flip side, I hope that one thing that comes out of this - actually something I believe has to come out of this - is that the US will act a little less strongly and a little more balanced when intervening in foreign affairs. There can be no doubt, I guess, that the US has acted unilaterally in the Middle East conflict. I myself for some reason tend to side with Israel to a certain extent -- but I do believe that Israel have been acting too forceful in Palestine over the last few years and I can see why somebody feels that the US have been fully on Israels side and thus have been indirectly "against" them.

In much of the world I think that there is a feeling that the US responses in the world is very directly linked to the effects of the issues on US economical interests (such as some would have it was the case in Kuwait where the oil was at stake) as well as US internal politics (such as some thinks is the case with the forceful backing of the Israelis).

As such, that I guess is the game in foreign politics -- only when you're the only economic and military superpower left, it's very easy to be seen as a bully if you do not step very, very carefully. And one thing that that requires is a very good understanding of other nations' culture and ways of thinking (including the fact that American & Western values are far from always appreciated up front) as well as the ability to communicate that you have that understanding.

Solving these terrorist issues are going to involve a whole lot of things. It might be necessary to put a foot down, rather firmly, and beat somebody with a big stick. But without long range political and economical programmes to help solve the problems in the Middle East, in countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan, in other areas where wars, hunger and political instability creates fertile ground for fanaticism and fundamentalism, nothing good will come of it in the end... Military actions alone, I fear, will only create martyrs and new candidates for suicide actions.

And finally -- the US with its massive economical power certainly has the ability to put a lot of things right. But the US is not the only one. Denmark, where I come from, actually is one of the countries in the world contributing most to UN actions and programmes on a per capita basis....

(Which tempts me to say that one way to start looking a little better, at least seen from this side of the Atlantic, could be for the US to start paying their fees to the UN - including the overdue ones... The funds are needed for a lot of humanitarian programmes there!)

Santragenius, you're quite right about many points. One of which being the back dues issue. My representatives on the hill have gotten any number of nasty letters from me on that point for over a decade.

But the issue at hand, as Clive pointed out, is none of these people really deserved to die. Which was my point, plain and simple. No citizen of ANY country deserves to die in such a fashion.

I have any number of issues with my government and it's foreign policies. But again, this was not my point. I have no wish for the people of Afghanistan to suffer any more than they already have, or Pakistan, or Palestine-insert country here.. I wish for the parties responsible to be tried. Period. Had this occurred any where else on the planet would this not be the case?? And I the agnostic am praying harder than I have in years that cooler heads will prevail and that more innocents will not perish. We go overboard and the entire world eventually gets involved in one way or another. The thought of which scares the living hell out of me. We do nothing, more innocent people will die simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I wish I was smart enough to have an answer. God knows I have been searching awfully hard for one in an attempt to explain this to my children.

Personally, I can only pray that we can all find a way, no matter where we are, to keep the whole planet from going up in flames. As to the issue of the prior post I can add no more, Clive stated it beautifully, and far better than I could. (*and again, Clive, you are just precious).

As I noted, my original post was no doubt one motivated by a need to sort it all out. I lost friends, I had a gut wrenching moment when I thought I had lost my husband (he was supposed to be at the Pentagon about that time but got stuck in traffic-thankfully as two of his colleagues died) This has to do something to your psyche, it has to come out somewhere. I can only pray that the many thousands of lives lost, the magnitude of which still I cannot rationally accept, can somehow not be in vain. Perhaps it is indeed time for people to mass in the streets, but to say "People of the world, Unite!"

I think it is time for a stiff drink..

What is the big deal about death? When my time comes, I hope I will deserve to die, when that time comes, if some smart ass doctor with a load of techno gizmos forces my body to keep up a pretence of animism, my spirit will look down on that geek and spit a great gob of plasma on him. When I said earlier that conceivably some of those who died may have been fortunate to exit from this 'sticky place', I had this in mind. People who have had near death experiences report a feeling of great peace and beauty. I love life, and am programed like all living creatures to avoid death (like the plague?), but I hope that I don't fear it, and I hope that when I die, my freinds will throw a party (never heard of a wake?) and not be miserable and morbid, but celebrate my ultimate (for now) evolutionary proccess
Pierce.
philex

The United States of America hasn't launched a blind retaliatory strike. I think there's some recognition that our earlier reactions to terrorists were ineffective and only served to incite more hatred. I won't respond to the rest of your scenarios.

I think a good working definition of terrorism is a criminal act of violence that aims to affect the audience rather than the person harmed.