h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hey folks, I've suddenly developed an interest in trying to do a bit of mini-research about bisexuality and how it's perceived in western, particularly American, society - whether that be mainstream society or the LGBT community. It was occurring to me today that while gay and lesbian folks are becoming increasingly accepted socially and legally, and while that acceptance in turn has engendered a movement to gain acceptance for transgender folks, bisexuals seem to be largely left out of this mix. For example: the University of California offers scholarships that you can apply for if you are gay or lesbian - not "LGBT," just "gay or lesbian" - and just today I noticed an advertisement for a blog that discussed financial issues for "gay, lesbian and transgender" people - no mention of bisexuals there either.

I was thinking this might have something to do with the fact that bisexuals can easily be "normalized" because sometimes they find themselves in straight relationships, or in other similarly ... what's the word... heteronormative? situations. Another thing to consider is that "bisexual" is probably the least encompassing of the orientations in the four-letter acronym (yes, I know there are other acronyms that might include other words that might be more inclusive). In my experience I've encountered multiple people who choose the "bisexual" label because it's the best option available, but not because it's the perfect label for them. Could this lead to a lack of cohesiveness in any sort of bisexual community, which might lead to a lack of recognition for bisexuals? Also, a lot of people - queer and straight alike - seem fairly uninformed about bisexuality, some to the extent of "not believing in it," which could also be a factor.

But I'm not sure - this could be just me looking to complain about being a marginalized bisexual - pissed off that I couldn't check the box for an extra scholarship on the UC application, sick of people telling me "Oh, you're bisexual? I don't really believe in bisexuality," and confused myself as to whether that's the best label that history and the current LGBT community could pick to describe people like me.

So. I'd like your opinions please; I don't particularly care what you call yourself - though it would be nice to have a representative sample of straight folks, bisexual folks and queer folks who aren't bisexual, though that might just be wishful thinking on my part. You can post here or send me an email at echomromeo AT gmail DOT com - though I'm sorry I don't have a more anonymous way of allowing comments to be submitted.

If there's any "safe" places you think I could cross-post this on h2g2, too, please let me know. I was a little leery of posting in Ask because who knows what random trolls this topic would engender.

Thanks!

EMR

A safe place? Do you mean a place where people who don't like gays and bisexuals are not likely to post? How would that be representative?

I can't answer for society, only for myself. I don't have any problem with gays, lesbians or bisexuals. But I suspect that most people reading this conversation, that is, those who have you marked as a friend, will answer the same.

In the UK the main issue seems to be that bisexuals cannot be easily compartmentalised, especially when you consider that there are many degrees of bisexuality. I, for example, am fully capable of being attracted to men, but it's *usually* more aesthetic than sexual (the one time it was the other way around ended very badly)... on the other hand I know people who are fully bisexual and have both boyfriends and girlfriends.

Incidentally the 'equal opportunities' bit on an application form I filled in recently actually listed bisexuality as an option.

There's certainly a current to the effect that wheras gay people 'can' help it', bisexuals are libertines who just want to shag anything that moves.

Also, bisexual men are especially scary and therefore horrifying as an HIV risk. They can infect 'innocent' women through their other kind of sex.

Plus there are the fidelity issues. A married bisexual person is bount to miss a bit of the other.

These negative attitudes may not be openly expressed, but they're definitely out there, tacitly.


Bisexual women have a special place. They're always 'up for it' (which is what a man wants), and they can put on a special show.


As with Gnomon, I can't really comment on societies attitudes. The above are not *my* attitudes, and I guess I've no reason to assume that others won't be as liberal-minded as I am. Maybe what I've expressed is cultural stereotypes rather than attitudes. Maybe very few people actualy hold these views but the ones who do make the most noise. How would I know?

Thanks all. Input duly noted.

Gnomon, I don't mind intolerant posts that aren't *trolling* posts. It's the sort of topic that tends to bring out the trolls, though, and I didn't particularly want to be responsible for that.

It's my observation that women seem to be more truly bisexual and have a stronger blurring in their minds of what might be desireable than men do.

Many men who claim to be bisexual seem to be much more strongly attracted to men than they are to women, so within the gay male community it seems a suspect classification. I personally find women beautiful, rmemeber enjoying Playboy as a child, and volunteer for feminist causes, all of which are very unusual for a gay man. But I've never had a woman and don't feel the need, and I've experienced the really wierd guys who call themselves bi (but who don't seem to either). So I don't feel the need for the label for myself and wonder a lot about the guys I do encounter.

It's not clear to me that for you to cachik the box that says lesbian that you'd be lying, at least not for bureaucratic counting purposes. Many lesbians (who strongly identify as lesbian now,and possibly also in the past) I know have had men intimately in their lives at one poinrt or another. It would be like someone who is half urugayan and half german-american could appropriately choose to cachik the box for hispanic, even if they are blonde enough to pass as white and have the last name Braun.

>>It's my observation that women seem to be more truly bisexual and have a stronger blurring in their minds of what might be desireable than men do.


I'd question that. The notion of desire is overlaid by all sorts of social contexts. Men stereotypically enjoy each other's company, often in packs, and idolise alpha males such as sporting heroes. Is this sexual behaviour? I wonder because while I'm heterosexual I'm a complete girly man who feels totally uncomfortable in all male company. (and I have no interest in sport).

I like to tease people by saying "I'm probably about 90% heterosexual - which is about 30% more than most men."

Just heard on The Nes Quiz:

Michael Caine on being asked whether his Hollywood neighbour, Richard Gere, was gay:

"Put it this way - he'd help out if they were short handed."

Edward the Bonobo said (I'm guessing under the costume that's Edward the Bonobo, but I haven't been around awhile so my guess might be wrong): Men stereotypically enjoy each other's company,

I think you have missed my point.

Men and women have differently shaped wired and sized brains, so they find their own sex to be easier to understand. There are people I don't understand that I'm friends with, but they are the exception, and I think that's true for most of us. INterestingly, in Armenian society, or at least the version that has made it here to the parts of the United States I have lived in, men are strongly expected to socialize only with men, and women only with women. Marriage may or may not occur between friends, and love may or may not be there, but friendship and love simply >aren't the point at all<. After marriage and kids they still strongly socialize only with people who share their own sex-chromosome pair. As yummy as those deliciously furry Armenian men are , there don't seem to be any special surfeit of them just ripe for the plucking, and homophobia runs apace in their culture just as much or more than it does outside of it.

And I'd be noticing if men watching sports were getting stiffies for each other....and I'd so *be* there if they were!

Myself, I enjoy the company of women and how they look. Despite my aesthetic and intellectual appreciation, and whatever you might say about my size (of my corpus collosum-I mean BRAIN size darnit!) , I still don't feel anything strongly sexual for 'em. This is not how I have heard and observed women bisexuals respond.

I'll ackmowledge that men and women appear to be wired differently. Sometimes too much is made of it, though. Any human characteristic you can think of has a Gaussian distribution. There's enormous overlap. Many a woman is more 'masculine' in their thought and behaviour than many a man. And vice versa.

I'm not convinced about male bonding, though. There seems to be something sexual in it to me.

I don't think my girlfirend had a problem with society in general being bisexual, but more a problem with the Ls and Gs in the LGBT. Though she has expressed the problem that occationaly they are seen as, like you said, people who will shag whatever moves, or people who can't make up their mind.

Most of the girls in the circle of friends I'm in are openly bisexual, and don't seem to have much hastle with it, though most are in long term relationships with guys.

My current housemate's ex-boyfriend was very dismissive of bis with boyfriends, sqayign that her lesbian crushes and desires were just her being silly

Another think is thought that we do live in Manchetser which has a large and proud gay community.

For guys, I'm thinking that there is again that certain thing about a bi-girl that they hope for that fabled 3-some with her and her best mate.

As for bi men, I still hold that opinion that the only differnce between a straight man and a bi man is 6 pints of beer!

This reminds me of a female friend who is bisexual. She dated a guy a while back, and didn't mention that she liked girls immediately. When she did, he said (somewhat out of the blue) that he didn't care if she fooled around with other girls, as long as she wasn't cheating on him with other guys.

Needless to say, she later severed connections with him, but this is the sort of common attitude I see from uninformed folks that I find rather unpleasant.

I should add that my circle of friends mostly consists of straight guys and bisexual and lesbian girls. We are united in our ability to comment on the women we see in films, magazines, television and the like.

A bi girl I know once said that one of the best things about being bi was that you could fancy all three lead characters of Pirates of the Carribean

fine by me, but if as long as it doesn't mean you have to praise the thesbian abilities of Olondo Bland or Ikea Knightly then I'm fine

I'm a straight guy and I fancy all three lead characters of Pirates of the Caribbean. TAP THAT!

It's a little puzzling to me why this particular attitude (honesty?) would be automatically unpleasant, so I'm supposing there's more context here we didn't get. Of the bisexual couples that I know, some are definitely exclusive, and some are not. Your friends ex-bf was presuming that since she brought the subject up, that it was important to her in some way.

Perhaps she and you feel that since he felt an open relationship in one direction was OK automatically implied an ungranted faithlessness on his part?

Can we expect jealousy to be rational?

Sea Change: the context is the assumptions that go with an adolescent relationship - perhaps I should have been clearer. These relationships are *very rarely* anything but monogamous, and anything from a small kiss to a full-blown "affair" counts as cheating. Having met the fellow in question I can tell you that he is pretty much a jerk, but the point is that he was clearly telling my friend that anything to do with her interest in women didn't mean anything (unless it was to turn him on), while her interest in men mattered a great deal, particularly if it inflamed his jealousy.

Yes, fairly common - but deeply insulting, I think, all the same.

Insulting? Or just biological?

Maybe it is biologically - hormonally - motivated. But our society doesn't operate on a purely biological basis. The structures of marriage, dating, etc are not just determined by hormones; they're determined by hundreds of years of evolving customs. Plus, unlike most other animals, humans have the ability to apply reason to things, instead of acting purely on instinct. So I would expect that a human should overcome whatever urges he has in order to act in the more ... mature... way expected of someone who can think.

However, I can certainly grant that this doesn't apply to the majority of the human population, who don't seem to tend to think very much. That could just be my intellectual elitism creeping in.