h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Bx4,

Nice selection of guitar stuff there. The only one I hadn't really heard was Pepe Romero, funnily enough. I'm not that keen on Johnson although I think 'Manhattan' is a decent track; I worked it out for somebody once.

On the ambiguity of #536, I think for me this resides in the extent to which the music has to be 'guitar based'. So I decided on music for which a guitar player is either the composer or where the guitar is integral to the arrangement of the piece.

ttfn

hi psi

'Me too, I don't see how it could be otherwise.'

I was thinking of a discussion that you and jank had upthread. A choice of preferred music made because it was personally evocative and the choice might persist for that reason.

For example my choice of Giuffre's 'Train on the River' is such for me (even though I also am a fan of Hall independently of that evocation.

Hi Bx4,

I'd still regard the list of personally evocative pieces as dynamic and context dependent though.

hi psi At the start of my Wandejahren the only 'furrin' music I had encountered was the blues, rhythm and blues and some ska. So when I passed through Andalucia on my way to North Africa I was rather blown away by flamenco which was my first exposure to 'world music'. Thereafter of course I encountered the oud and all the other plucked instruments to be found in North Africa, the Middle East and India but flamenco guitar has always had a special place in my heart. Pepe Romero: Surprised you had not encountered him though like Manitas de Plata, and my alternate choice Paco Pena, rooted in traditional flamenco than in new style. I guess since you know Amigo and Tomatito that you have also come across Manolo Sanlucar and Serranito. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yABYWk8896M&feature=fvw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi_6uxHxxOo&feature=related I suppose its not surprising that you get quite a lot of crossover between flamenco and classical (Paco Pena is another notable example) given Albeniz and also the classical transcriptions of Segovia, also an Andalusian though not a flamenco guitarist. Beyond Paco de Lucia there seems to be a growth in flamenco-jazz fusion but I don't really know much about it. Eric Johnson: I haven't heard enough of him to form a firm opinion. Only one listen to 'Ah Via Musicom' but I quite liked him on first hearing. I'd be interested as to why you are not keen on him. Ambiguous: As I said a slightly different interpretation on my part list would have produced a slightly different list. No big thing. clearbury has started another thread: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbreligion/F2213237?thread=7081957&skip=0&show=20#p88541348 the OP is weirdly reminiscent of that from 'Objective'. Quite a fan of the strawman.;) must dash bsy

hi psi

Not sure that my 'evocatives' have change much recently if at all.

Hi Bx4,

What is to be done with clearbury, dear oh dear.

'Not sure that my 'evocatives' have change much recently if at all.'
You must be getting old

ttfn

hi psi

clearbury: Once I have finished my outstanding reply to you on 'Objective' I intend to respond to his last there. Time poverty precludes involvement on two clearbury threads. although on reading the OP much 'steely resolve' was needed to read no further.

'getting'?

bsy

Hi Bx4,

'I'm not sure they do. The Joyce article on Moral Anti-Realism you quote also recognises the two usages:'
Yes, but then decides to use one of them. That's a carving in my book. The issue on this point for me is whether you are making a case that one carving is better than another. In my view it isn't, what is more important is some agreement on terminology to allow discussion of more substantive points.

'So I don't see a particular problem in calling the first usage cognitivist subjectivism and the second non-cognitivist subjectivism.'
Neither do I. It just wasn't how I was using the term, and I thought I'd pointed out I was using terms in the sense given in the Joyce article. I apologise for any unclarity.

'Not really Joyce identifies that there are two usages but for the purposes of the specific entry he is restricting himself to one. This obviously does not preclude both usages when qualified by 'cognitivist' and 'non-cognitivist'.'
I think this is compatible with my view, so I don't understand the 'not really'.

'However I am somewhat emboldened by the fact that it is clearly not so obvious to Joyce either.'
It is still obvious to me, but I'll give that supplement another read.

'I am not quite clearly how you reconcile the two statements above.'
I am not clear why you think there is any difficulty. This is because to justify holding that minds are so similar as to preclude cultural relativism is a tough assignment. So it remains the case that the difficulty gradient for the subjectivist is in the direction of limiting relativism rather than introducing any.

'I don't see why the statement 'But it is easy for them [subjectivists] to be relativist[s] also' was your assumed conclusion, not mine.'
It is just obvious though

'I have no doubt so does Simon Blackburn but it's mine I tell you, mine!'
Quick, publish!

ttfn

I've just read the supplement again, and I think I see what you are getting at. I think I need to think about the destinction between a relation-designating account of moral truth and a relativistic account some more.

ttfn

hi psi

'Yes, but then decides to use one of them.'
In the context of the article yes he does but points out that there is another usage.

'That's a carving in my book.'

It may well be but until the analogue is further clarified the mapping on to the target remains ambiguous.

'The issue on this point for me is whether you are making a case that one carving is better than another. In my view it isn't,......'

I'm not. Just suggesting that since Joyce admitted alternative usages he should have been more precise in his definition.

'........what is more important is some agreement on terminology to allow discussion of more substantive points.'

I agree but I think 'non-cognivist subjectivism' useful to distinguish non cognitivist meta-ethical stances based on individual feelings and/or attitudes from those that are not.

'I apologise for any unclarity.'

My comment was based on a prior reading of Van Roojen's SEP article that mentioned 'cognitivist subjectivism'. The lack of clarity was down to Joyce rather than you

'I think this is compatible with my view, so I don't understand the 'not really'..

It referred to your 'Not unless we blur the definition of one or the other' since I did not see that such a blurring was a necessary consequence but rather an artifact of Joyce's imprecision.

'I am not clear why you think there is any difficulty. This is because to justify holding that minds are so similar as to preclude cultural relativism is a tough assignment.'

It certainly is such for a non-cognitivists subjectivist stance like emotivism or it variants and derivatives.

However I am not persuaded that it holds for cognivist subjectivism with its mind-dependent moral facts since this does not require that the moral fact be mental only that its existence is dependent on the existence of minds.

Echoing a distinction we discussed briefly on Objective concerning a prposition like:. The proposition was something like:

'x is a car'

If all observers understand the property 'car' and x is in fact a car then is this not 'to justify holding that minds are so similar as to preclude cultural relativism' in the recognition of the property 'car' and the fact that x has that property

However, if there were no minds then the property 'car' would not exist so it and the fact 'x is a car' are mind dependent whereas with the proposition 'x has mass' the property 'mass' and the fact are mid-dependent.

So I see no reason why cognivist subjectivism entails moral relativism.

'It is just obvious though'

All hail the Principle!

'Quick, publish!'

I have just read a review of Shafer-Landau's 'Moral Realism: A Defence' which begins with the sentence:

'Analytical metaethics is an area where a great deal of ingenuity is currently required in order to find a distinctive yet plausible position to defend at any length.'

Since Blackburn clearly needs all the help he can get to avoid 'Quasi-Realism' being seen a a mere variant of fictionalism, hence precipitating a slide down the greasy pole of academic status, I have decided to donate my concept to him, FOC.

bsy

Evening Bx4,

Ok I think we agree on the carving, I'll use 'non-cognivist subjectivism' when appropriate (if I remember )

On cognitivist subjectivism and cars, I'm reminded of my debate with that Rorty fan in the blogosphere. I think he was alluding to Persig in considering a section of exhaust pipe being considered as a religious talisman by some community that hadn't heard of motorbikes.

'So I see no reason why cognivist subjectivism entails moral relativism.'
Just to be clear, I've never said it does. I've just said it is /easy/ for a subjectivist to be a relativist, albeit that now you have pointed out one form of evasive action by referencing the suppliment on relation-designating accounts.

Shafer-Landau's 'Moral Realism': excellent opening sentence!

ttfn

Evening psi

'if I remember'

It comes to all of us.

'I've never said it does. I've just said it is /easy/ for a subjectivist to be a relativist'

Fair enough though I'm still not clear why you think it easy.

' albeit that now you have pointed out one form of evasive action by referencing the suppliment on relation-designating accounts.'

I was thinking that Joyce's account of subjectivist relativism seems, if I am reading him correctly, inclined to the view I mentioned above that mind-dependent facts can be 'relatively true'. This view which I think is problematic seems quite distinct from, for example, Searle's interpretation of what makes a fact mind-dependent.

I think it might be an idea to hold fire on this exchange until we have both thought further on it. After there are a number of other unresolved issues outstanding.

'excellent opening sentence!'

Indeed it is. It seems neatly to encapsulate an endemic problem with analytical meta-ethics as practised by academic philosophers.

bsy

http://www.mixx.com/videos/8535861/youtube_mother_says_joe_walsh

Morning psi

In case it has passed under your radar I have finally managed (a somewhat hastily written) reply to your #595 on 'objective'

Of to do 'bad things' to some yeast.

bsy

Morning Bx4,

I agree about holding fire until we've thought some more.

I'll just say for now that even if we agree with Joyce that the absolute/relative dimension is orthogonal to the subjective/objective one, it is still easy for the subjectivist to fall into the relativist quadrant. All that is required is a particular notion of mind dependence whereby what is 'good' is determined by reference to what people value in a given culture.

I did see your response in 'objective' and I hope I'll get chance to reply later.

ttfn

Hi both,

Here's my list of 8. It could easily have included different tracks by the same artists and some artists have been left out on nothing more significant than a coin toss. So there was no room for Paco De Lucia, Frank Zappa or Led Zeppelin to name just a few.

Angelina-Tommy Emmanuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhR04kmcSXU

Strange Meeting-Bill Frisell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLtrV9hzZ0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ddAtKWXhaA

1983 ... ( A Merman I Should Turn To Be )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiGovTdUQKk

The Sixteen Men of Tain-Allan Holdsworth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X8pZmM-hJ0

The Dance of Maya-The Mahavishnu Orchestra (John Mclaughlin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXuDijksD20

Bright Size Life-Pat Metheney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s78nEIkFCAQ

Protocol-John Scofield
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWqpQbch9Ag

The Dance of Maya-The Mahavishnu Orchestra (John Mclaughlin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXuDijksD20

ttfn

Oops,

I like #5 a lot but it shouldn't be there twice

So the official list is:

Angelina-Tommy Emmanuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhR04kmcSXU

Strange Meeting-Bill Frisell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLtrV9hzZ0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ddAtKWXhaA

1983 ... ( A Merman I Should Turn To Be )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiGovTdUQKk

The Sixteen Men of Tain-Allan Holdsworth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X8pZmM-hJ0

The Dance of Maya-The Mahavishnu Orchestra (John Mclaughlin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXuDijksD20

Bright Size Life-Pat Metheney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s78nEIkFCAQ

Protocol-John Scofield
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWqpQbch9Ag

Cosmic Debris-Frank Zappa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-E6FDf9GkA

Frank made it after all

Morning psi

No hurry with a reply on objective I'm fairly time poor myself.

'I agree about holding fire until we've thought some more.'

Agreed. We still have metaphor and fictionalism to deal with.

'I'll just say for now that even if we agree with Joyce that the absolute/relative dimension is orthogonal to the subjective/objective one.'

I don't I think it is a remarkably daft analogy.

'All that is required is a particular notion of mind dependence whereby what is 'good' is determined by reference to what people value in a given culture.'

Perhaps that is where we differ.

I'll just say for the moment that as I pointed out to Juan Toomany ('Objective: #316) that I am using Searle's 'notion of mind dependence' (see his 'Mind: A Brief History'' and 'The Social Construction of Reality) rather than yours which seems to rely on the problematic notion that moral properties are not properties simpliciter.

Hi psi:

Of your list I hadn't come across Emmanuel, Holdsworth, and Scofield (odd since he features as a sideman on records by people I like but not on records I've heard. Frisell I know but only from his early ECM work. McLaughlin might have made it to my list save that I had already Hall, Pass and Metheny on it and I was trying to balance different genres***.

Anyhow I'll give you my reactions when I've had a closer listen (possibly investing in a better sound card and speakers).

***Perhaps we should have gone for separate lists by genre.

bsy

Afternoon Bx4,

Is Searle's definition available on the web? If not could you give a sketch?

Also, punctuation can alter the meaning quite a lot, as in : "Call me, Ishmael." So am I to understand that:

"I don't I think it is a remarkably daft analogy."

is meant in the sense:

"I don't I think it is, a remarkably daft analogy."?

I'm not sure why you think that my notions of mind dependence are problematic. I see this as an umbrella term for lots of differents kinds of relations between referents and minds. But if I can get a sense of Searle's view this might become clear.

Yes good sound/speakers...essential for list listening

Bx4,

Just noticed that a famous book chain might go belly up so I went down there with a gift card I found around the house and picked up a copy of 'The Social Construction of Reality'. So if you have a page number in mind, let me know.

ttfn