h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Bx4

"...'Senior officials within the EU have said that the rump UK would find itself in an identical position to a newly independent Scotland, and that both would have to renegotiate the terms of their entry into the EU.' (AFP news agency)..." - I wonder how many Britons outside of Scotland realise that this is the case?

"...Given that the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain' in the current ' United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' was formed by the union of Scotland and England the it would see to follow that if Scotland secedes the the state known as 'Great Britain' would cease to exist leaving a successor state of the United Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland. (Wales is not mentioned in either of the Acts of Union of 1707 or those of 1800) so it does not follow that thid UK(E & NI) would be recognised as a continuing member of the EU:..." - I don't see it this way at all.

I see only one state (the UK) and don't see it 'as a given' that 10% of the population can vote to dissolve the state without the 'rump' 90% (nor their representatives) having a say. I realise that our current crop of politicians are in many ways (EU and Scotland wise notably) spineless surrender monkeys and for this reason I believe there is every chance they will roll over and have their tummies tickled (gold plated pension anyone)?

Perhaps this, rather than the EU will be UKIPs path to Westminster? Angry of Tunbridge Wells writes to ask why he wasn't consulted about the dissolution of his country whilst those Scots seem to have a referendum 'every other week'. (BTW did you notice the Nasty king has just offered the Welsh a referendum on tax raising powers)? Meanwhile Monmouth MP complains that the Welsh Government is diverting UK Government grant money away from Monmouthshire and into 'Welsh' Wales. Another dog waits to have its tummy tickled.

'... They might contrariwise form a pact..." - I'm still laughing at the idea from the other day I'm afraid. UKIP would be as mad as hatters to tie themselves to those losers; (otoh...).

And so onto the bikes: I agree that Timeshift was too much of a regurgitation of Brighton seaside 'mods and rockers' and similar 'go to' film I must have seen twenty times before. I guess the makers thought the social history was needed to keep average BBC4 viewers pinned to their armchairs? (There was no TV for me last night).

I liked the BSA photograph. I had a BSA PUSH bike until I sold it for £11! Happy days. (I got a Dawes with the help of the proceeds). I remember the school bike shed being peppered with the odd (always black iirc) motorised BSA ('it 'ill break y'r leg if y' don't kick it right').

I don't know off hand how heavy BB is though I have no interest in anything heavier still. I think you may recall that I think a proper R series would have a 500cc engine and a light-weight frame to match: Something that could be thrown about. Meanwhile I've just checked over the brakes to make sure there was nothing binding after yesterday's rainy ride.

bs

hi rg

'Home hub' flaky. Replacement tomorrow. Will reply then

bs

hi rg

>> I wonder how many Britons outside of Scotland realise that this is the case? <<

Well Project Fear have been arguing that Scotland would have to re-apply but I'm not sure that anyone really knows. There is no precedent for what happens when a member state splits in two separate countries.

>>I see only one state (the UK) and don't see it 'as a given' that 10% of the population can vote to dissolve the state without the 'rump' 90% (nor their representatives) having a say.<<

I think we differ in that I consider the UK to be a 'superstate' in the sense of ' an agglomeration of nations and/or states, often linguistically and ethnically diverse, under a single political-administrative structure.' As such then I take it that the UN's right of self-determination applies to the adult population of the //individual// states wihtin the superstate.

The representatives of the superstate at Westminster //have// agreed to a referendum in which a 'Yes' vote would dissolve the currennt superstate, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

>> I realise that our current crop of politicians are in many ways (EU and Scotland wise notably) spineless surrender monkeys and for this reason I believe there is every chance they will roll over and have their tummies tickled >>

A alternative view is that since the UK is a founder member of the UN it cannot abrogate the ' principle of ... self-determination of peoples' (Charter of the United Nations Chapter 1 Para. 2)

>>Perhaps this, rather than the EU will be UKIPs path to Westminster? <<

I suspect that it will be the Nasty Party's unwillingness to relinquish power that will lead to an electoral pact/coalition with UKIP. The irresistible rise of the Faragistas seems to be rather confined to England and the 'swivel-eyed loons' seem to be imploding in Scotland.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/wider-political-news/ukip-in-scotland-thrown-into-chaos-amid-rumours-of-leadership-coup.22569827

>>UKIP would be as mad as hatters to tie themselves to those losers; (otoh...). <<

The increasing unpopularity of the Wingmen and the erosion of the nasty party vote by UKIP would seem to make them natural coalition partners since they are both in favour of an in-out referendum on the EU whereas the Millipedes have not committed themselves to a referendum though:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/05/labour-divisions-over-eu-emerge-mps-launch-pro-referendum-group

you seem persuaded that the Millipedes will form a majority administration in 2015but not everyone shares your view.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/09/18/the-state-of-the-uks-electoral-battle-none-of-the-parties-are-clearly-on-course-for-victory-in-the-next-general-election/





http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/wider-political-news/ukip-in-scotland-thrown-into-chaos-amid-rumours-of-leadership-coup.22569827

>>Angry of Tunbridge Wells writes to ask why he wasn't consulted about the dissolution of his country whilst those Scots seem to have a referendum 'every other week'.>>

Turnbridge Wells is as I recall a town in England which remains insoluble.

>>(BTW did you notice the Nasty king has just offered the Welsh a referendum on tax raising powers)?>>

As recommended by the Silk Commission:

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2013-11-01/cameron-and-clegg-confirm-welsh-tax-plans/


The Welsh Government seems to take a somewhat different view:

http://www.monmouth-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=37120&headline=MP%20questions%20budget%20cuts

>> I agree that Timeshift was too much of a regurgitation of Brighton seaside 'mods and rockers' and similar 'go to' film I must have seen twenty times before.<<

The bikers of my teenage years pre-dated the whole 'mods and rockers' by some years and there were no mods but rather teddy boys with whom they seeme to exist quite amicably. Nor did they wear 'Perfecto' jackets a la 'Wild Ones' but rather WWII flying jackets and jeans.

The programs attempt to portray the 'Perfecto' jacket as having Nazi overtones was a nonsense since it was designed in the State in the late twenties.

>>I guess the makers thought the social history was needed to keep average BBC4 viewers pinned to their armchairs? (There was no TV for me last night). <<

Perhaps though it was by and large cod sociology as was the program you missed on 'British Rock and Roll' whose only interesting fact was that bloke who plays the butler in 'Downton Abbey' is an expert on Lonnie Donngan.

>>I liked the BSA photograph. I had a BSA PUSH bike until I sold it for £11! Happy days. (I got a Dawes with the help of the proceeds). I remember the school bike shed being peppered with the odd (always black iirc) motorised BSA ('it 'ill break y'r leg if y' don't kick it right'). <<

My first bike was an ex-Home guard model that looked a bit like this:

http://www.camerasnaps.org.uk/military/home-guard-bicycle.jpg

(sans Chopper) but I don't recall the manufacturer. It was gearless and too big for me and I had a number of notable crashes on it,. It was eventualyl replaced by a Cooperative Wholesale Society bicycle (straight handlebars, 3 speed gears) which I had for a good few. Our school was a standard state high school but the headmaster had delusions of grandeur seeing it as an 'Eton on the Forth') so motor bikes were a no-no and I don't recall a bike shed.

>>I don't know off hand how heavy BB is though I have no interest in anything heavier still. I think you may recall that I think a proper R series would have a 500cc engine and a light-weight frame to match: Something that could be thrown about.>>

I more familiar with the RT series and the R1200RT is much lighter than the R1150RT that preceded it. However, the last 500cc boxer that BMW produced was, afaik, the R50/5 ('slash 5) first produced in 1970 and discontinued in 1974

bs

Hi Bx4

"...There is no precedent for what happens when a member state splits in two separate countries..." - I'm not sure this is what will happen. Scotland (subject to referendum) will leave the UK State. There is to be no splitting in the manner of Czechoslovakia with that state's parliament dissolving itself into oblivion. I have no doubt that Scotland will remain in the EU for the simple reason that all its citizens are already also citizens of that organisation.

"...The representatives of the superstate at Westminster //have// agreed to a referendum in which a 'Yes' vote would dissolve the currennt superstate, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland..." - I don't think so. I don't see it working like this at all.

"...it cannot abrogate the ' principle of ... self-determination of peoples'..." - Who is? Scotland can exit; simply vote 'yes.'

"...The irresistible rise of the Faragistas seems to be rather confined to England..." - And Wales. Ask The Real Opposition how many MEPs they have in that country. I've no idea if there will be an election pact though the thought depresses me. Farage may look as if he just climbed out of an air crash though surely he wouldn't follow the Cleggies?

"...the Millipedes have not committed themselves to a referendum..." - Indeed they are talking out the referendum bill.

[YL]"Labour divisions over EU emerge" - Kinda like the seventies no? The ex Swindon MP (Labour) fought a rearguard campaign in the HoL to shame Labour into holding the LTR. - Failed.

"...not everyone shares your view..." - No surprise there! I like pluralistic politics.

"...Turnbridge Wells is as I recall a town in England which remains insoluble..." - Don't count on it. Once you Celts have gone Wessex shall rise up. Even today 'The North' (your South) may as well be another land so far as the Chelsea set is concerned.

[YL]"The formula used to allocate funding to local authorities is developed using a range of indicators and takes account of the additional spend needed as a result of providing services to sparse and deprived populations." - Well they would say that wouldn't they and hardly going to admit that they rigged the formula to make sure Labour areas got more than Evil Monmouthshire?

"...WWII flying jackets and jeans..." - Draughty middle whilst the latter offer no resistance to asphalt nor rain. Might as well start a fashion in riding in pants.

"...Nazi overtones..." - I'm dubious about this too.

"...bloke who plays the butler in 'Downton Abbey' is an expert on Lonnie Donngan..." I didn't know this. I've heard of both. Another cultural black hole to address.

"...ex-Home guard model that looked a bit like this..." - Wow I've heard of bike pumps though to press air not lead.

"...motor bikes were a no-no..." - My schools were clearly more sympathetic to pupils commuting on motorised bicycles.

"...the last 500cc boxer..." - A shame!

bs

hi rg

busy at work and dragooned into redecorating when not. Will reply to-morrow.

Hi Bx4

No worries.

Saw that Portillo (in his railway centred TV prog) was in Hamburg 'Hamboorg'.

bs

hi rg

Did a reply but it failed to post. Too tired to redo tonight.

Portaloo- Missed it whain the 'Hamboorg' local pronunciationˈhambʊɪç' so he's right about the 'oo' but wrong about the 'rg'. What did he find particularly interesting about the local railways?

bs

Hi Bx4

These Hamburg 'railways' interested Portaloo... http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/

There is a miniature MP to find depicted clutching a Bradshaw European guide.

Sorry you had bother with computer.

Oh yes I saw today that Caterham are branching out to bikes... http://uk.caterhamcars.com/news/caterham-group-launches-motorcycle-division

bs

hi rg

>>Scotland (subject to referendum) will leave the UK State. There is to be no splitting in the manner of Czechoslovakia with that state's parliament dissolving<<
I'm not persuaded by the parallel. At the time of its dissolution Czechoslovakia unlike Britain was a federal state with a federal parliament and two devolved parliaments, one Czech, one Slovak. The federal parliament dissolved the devolved parliaments did not.

I didn't suggest that the UK parliament would dissolve. Clearly it will simply rename itself to reflect its changed circumstances as it did when the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland when Ireland left the UK. However, prior to the union with Ireland in 1801, the United Kingdom of Great Britain was a union of the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland and should Scotland secede the state of Great Britain would cease to exist leaving a United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

>> I don't think so. I don't see it working like this at all.<<

see above.

>> Who is? Scotland can exit; simply vote 'yes.' <<

Indeed but in your 1496 you say ' I see the UK as one country and therefore the system of government (whether devolved regionally or not) should be the same regardless of where the punter happens to live in the country.' which given the built in English electoral majority would effectively deny the electors of nations of the 'Celtic fringe' the right of self determination. Perhaps this is why Westgov is not giving English voters any say in Scotlands potential succession.

>>Indeed they are talking out the referendum bill. >>

Which would suggest that those in favour of a post 2015 in/out referendum should not vote for the Millipedes (or the Wingmen)

>>The ex Swindon MP (Labour) fought a rearguard campaign in the HoL to shame Labour into holding the LTR. - Failed.<<

Another Blair porkie. No surprise there.

>>Don't count on it. Once you Celts have gone Wessex shall rise up. Even today 'The North' (your South) may as well be
another land so far as the Chelsea set is concerned.<<
I thought Wessex lay to the west of Chelsea?

>>Well they would say that wouldn't they and hardly going to admit that they rigged the formula to make sure Labour areas got more than Evil Monmouthshire? <<

I thought Plaid Cymru held sway in 'Welsh Wales'?

>>And Wales. Ask The Real Opposition how many MEPs they have in that country. I've no idea if there will be an election pact though the thought depresses me. Farage may look as if he just climbed out of an air crash though surely he wouldn't follow the Cleggies? <<

'Given that UKIP has a negligible presence in Scotland and Wales, and attracts almost all its support from English voters, the case to be made is that it is England's, not Britain’s, version of the Tea Party.'

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/michael-skey/older-anxious-and-white-why-ukip-are-english-tea-party

Given that the Nasty Party's support seems to be somewhat eroded by the Faragistas:

http://www.psa.ac.uk/political-insight/blog/rise-and-rise-ukip

and with a decline in support for the Wingmen:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/coalition-lib-dems-peter-kellner/#.UoVEKic-3ow

Then some form of coalition or pre-election pact beteen the Nasties and the Faragistas does not seem particularly improbable.

>> Draughty middle whilst the latter offer no resistance to asphalt nor rain. Might as well start a fashion in riding in pants.<<

Well Levi 501s are quite robust and contrary to the waffle of Timeshift were worn by Marlon Brando in the Wild Ones

http://artsmeme.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/marlon-brando-the-wild-one-seat.jpg

Though the cheap jeans worn by Wennish copycats:

http://tonupboys.com/gallery/main/images/brickworks.jpg

seem to fit your description.

>> I'm dubious about this too. <<

I'm fairly sure that Wehrmacht motorcyclists wore either greatcoats or ordinary uniforms depending on the weather. Nearest

thing to a 'Nazi' leather jacket similar to the Presidio is the Luftwaffe Hartmann flying jacket:

http://www.luftwaffe-militaria.com/upload/prod/885_b.jpg

>> Another cultural black hole to address. <<

One for me too since although he was contemporaneous with my early rock and roll years I took little interest in the British
variety and 'skiffle' left me wholly unmoved

>>My schools were clearly more sympathetic to pupils commuting on motorised bicycles. <<

Autre temps, autre moeurs. I think our headmaster saw them as symptomatic of the 'death of deference' amongst the proles.

>>Miniatur Wunderland Hamburg<<

Strangely never visited it. I gather Dresden to Kiel is a 'Great Continental Railway Journey'! Who'd have thunk it

>> Caterham are branching out to bikes...>>

{yr lnk} 'The iconic Caterham Seven sportscar is fondly referred to as the closest experience to motorcycle riding on four
wheels'

I pointed this out to the SO but she was not amused which is ironic since she favours (yellow) biker leathers when driving the Clockwork Lemon.


bs

Hi Bx4

Scotland: "...Czechoslovakia unlike Britain was a federal state..." - Czechoslovakia was and then it wasn't (a state). I know I don't keep up with news so much these days; are there plans for the dissolution of the UK state upon a 'Yes' vote that have been made public thus far? As suggested earlier this may be something that's widely believed in Scotland yet not featured on the collective radar in TLUK.

"...Clearly it will simply rename itself to reflect its changed circumstances as it did when the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland when Ireland left the UK..." - Clearly?

"...However, prior to the union with Ireland in 1801, the United Kingdom of Great Britain was a union of the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland and should Scotland secede the state of Great Britain would cease to exist..." - The state (known as the UK) will continue. It would be unjust if a binding vote on dissolution were confined to less than 10% of the population.

"... the built in English electoral majority would effectively deny the electors of nations of the 'Celtic fringe' the right of self determination..." - This appears to deny the reality of the referendum being held in 2014. Only Scots can deny the Scots.

"...I thought Wessex lay to the west of Chelsea?.." - My history is a bit hazy (as you know) though the King of Wessex had his seat in Winchester and the diocese of that city (until recently) extended to where The Shard is today. http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=get&type=map&id=map1000

"...I thought Plaid Cymru held sway in 'Welsh Wales'?.." Check it out www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/election2011/constituency/html/wales.stm

[quoting]"... Given that UKIP has a negligible presence in Scotland and Wales..." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/html/ukregion_20.stm check out The Real Opposition (I guess an even 'less than negligible presence')? There are no elected UKIP MPs yet whilst plenty enough of The Real Opposition sit in Cabinet.

UKIP (so far an EU elections are concerned) whip The Real Opposition in England and Wales.

"...some form of coalition or pre-election pact beteen the Nasties and the Faragistas does not seem particularly improbable..." - You are joking right?

UKIP do well in *EU elections* and that's about it. [YL]"...in May’s local elections, both main political parties have begun to ramp up their talk about immigration and Europe..." - Though not as much as they did in 2005.

"...Levi 501s are quite robust..." - I've got to check these out. No more boring biker gear for me.

"...'skiffle' left me wholly unmoved..." - No argument from this quarter!

"...Dresden to Kiel is a 'Great Continental Railway Journey'!.." - Dresden is one of the few stations I've been known to frequent beyond the Wessex Trains franchise boundary.

"...the closest experience to motorcycle riding..." - My father used to say of the Lotus 7 that it was "a motorcycle on four wheels". I guess some things don't change beyond the badge.

I've been invited to a viewing of an electric car. Perhaps this, not clockwork, is the future? Has Bx4 SO seen "Kill Bill"?

bs

hi rg

>> are there plans for the dissolution of the UK state upon a 'Yes' vote that have been made public thus far?<<

No one is suggesting, afaik, that the 'UK state' will dissolve if Scotland secedes only that the part of it known as Great Britain (Scotland) will.

>>Clearly?<<

Well since the former political entity known as Great Britain would have ceased to exist retaining it in the name of the new political entity that would be comprised if England, Wales and Northern Ireland might be seen as an absurd post-imperial folie de grandeur.

>>The state (known as the UK) will continue.<<

Somewhat disingenuous since truncating the name doen't change the fact that it will be a different state should Scotland secede.

>>It would be unjust if a binding vote on dissolution were confined to less than 10% of the population.<<

In 2014 the Scots will be voting on whether the wish to secede from the UK this does logically entail that the remainder of the UK (rUK), comprising England, Wales and Northern will dissolve.

>>This appears to deny the reality of the referendum being held in 2014. Only Scots can deny the Scots. <<

No it merely comments on your apparent view that the other nations of the UK should be allowed to vote in referendums on devolution/secession held within individual countries in the UK. The UK, as a signatory of the UN Charter, cannot deny the Scottish people the right of self-determination.

>>.I thought Wessex lay to the west of Chelsea?.." - My history is a bit hazy (as you know) though the King of Wessex had his seat in Winchester and the diocese of that city (until recently) extended to where The Shard is today. <<

It may depend on the date:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Essex_2.svg/450px-Essex_2.svg.png

'From the mid-6th century, London was incorporated into the Kingdom of Essex, which extended as far west as St Albans and for a period included Middlesex and Surrey...Lundenwic came under direct Mercian control in about 670, as Essex became gradually reduced in size and status. After the death of Offa of Mercia in 796, it was disputed between Mercia and Wessex.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_London

>>Check it out <<
Your results show that the Welsh Labour dominate the industrial south and the far north whereas the hinterland, which I take to be 'Welsh Wales', apart from the Tory Carmarthen West & Pembrokeshire South
seem to be all Plaid Cymru. David Davies seems to be a fully paid up member of the swivel eyed loon tendency of the Nasty Party


>>check out The Real Opposition (I guess an even 'less than negligible presence')? There are no elected UKIP MPs yet whilst plenty enough of The Real Opposition sit in Cabinet.<<

A continued decline in the fortunes of the Wingmen and a continued rise in support for the Faragistas might result in a very different Cabinet post 2015. Though whatever the outcome of the 2014 refererendum I won't be a citizen of the of the UK state so I'll be in Rhett Butler mode.

>>You are joking right? <<

despite the opposition of the Boy George. It is finding favour amongst some in the Nasty Party:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2438509/There-deals-UKIP-Osborne-slaps-Tory-MPs-want-stand-joint-ticket-rival-party.html

If UKIP did hold the balance of power in an English dominated HoC the I am sure that TBG and his ilk would sacrifice their 'principles to retain power.

>>I've got to check these out. No more boring biker gear for me. <<

The shrink-to-fit ones are probably best avoided.

>> No argument from this quarter! <<

The programme also featured John Lennon and the Quarrymen:

http://www.dmbeatles.com/pictures/1026.jpg

One reason why I was never a fan of the Beatles.

>> Dresden is one of the few stations I've been known to frequent...<<

Although I have traveled on ICE trains from Hamburg to Kiel (and various other cities within and without Germany) Dresden has not featured and the line from Hamburg to Kiel is a relatively slow branch line through rather dull countryside. I'm not really clear why Dresden-Kiel would be considered a Great European Train Journey though I don't know which route Portaloo took:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/ICEtracks.png/220px-ICEtracks.png

>> My father used to say of the Lotus 7 that it was "a motorcycle on four wheels". I guess some things don't change beyond the badge. <<

The Caterham 7 like it predecessor is quite minimalist and somewhat primitive technologically but, imo, is nothing like riding a modern BMW R-series bike (more like riding the 'Death Bike' perhaps).

>>I've been invited to a viewing of an electric car<<

BMW has just released an electric car:

http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/why-bmw-gambled-big-on-the-all-electric-i3.html/?a=viewall

As I recall it dropped out of F1 because they intended to realign their technical development ' in terms of sustainability and environmental compatibility'.

>> Perhaps this, not clockwork, is the future?<<

Well, I doubt that its performance or general scariness will equal that of the Clockwork Lemon but given that, leaving aside the C7 and the Boxers, we try to be ecological well behaved. It might be a suitable replacement for our aging VW 'ragtop' but I don't see me trading in m boxers for one of these any time in the foreseeable future:

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/zero-ds

>> Has Bx4 SO seen "Kill Bill"?<<

Indeed she has but points out that she had yellow leathers before Uma Thurman did and points out that unlike Thurman has never worn a /flared/ yellow jumpsuit as Thurman did:

http://newsliteimgs.s3.amazonaws.com/091028_killbill.jpg

if for no other reason that the odious 'Wossie' took to wearing one as an 'hommage':

bs

Hi Bx4

Straight to Scotland..."...your apparent view that the other nations of the UK should be allowed to vote in referendums on devolution/secession held within individual countries in the UK..." - If Scotland is simply voting to leave* then no problem. If Scotland is voting to dissolve the State then that's wrong.

* That said in my view the terms of secession need to be agreed by the whole of the UK I don't want our politicians having an easy time in post 'Yes' negotiations.

"...It may depend on the date..." - Well it usually does where history is concerned. Blair famously 'drew a line' under bad press and 'moved on'. He left 'fuddy-duddys' like me to remember how Monmouthshire was sold out to the Welsh and that Blair's more recent EU Treaty referendum was never held.

"...Your results show that the Welsh Labour dominate the industrial south..." - Labour dominates the population of Wales as a whole. That's what should count in a democracy. We can't have the 'traditional' rural Welsh 'tail' wagging the Labour 'dog'? Like you suggest; 'swivel eyed' Davies doesn't fit in - funny that the Monmouthshire MP not fitting in with the Welsh stereotype? One might suppose Monmouthshire folk didn't think like the Welsh. I wonder how they'd have cast in 1972 when the HoC voted for them?

"...If UKIP did hold the balance of power in an English dominated HoC..." - I'll put your mind at rest - they won't.

Trains: I think the original programme was called something like 'Great British Train Journeys' which could simply refer to train journeys in Great Britain. I suppose that, from 2014, the title may soon be truly historic.

I smiled at this "...yellow leathers before Uma Thurman did..." 1-0!

A bit skipped and rushed I know Bx4; more later when I'm not heading out into the autumn sun and hopefully the Internet is not so sluggish that I can't easily open links...

bs

Hi Bx4
Departure stalled. Some more jottings follow...

"... since the former political entity known as Great Britain would have ceased to exist retaining it in the name of the new political entity that would be comprised if England, Wales and Northern Ireland might be seen as an absurd post-imperial folie de grandeur..." - I always thought of Great Britain as a place (named by The Romans).

That those outside of the UK think of what we chose to call ourselves as 'absurd' doesn't strike me as a high priority need to rush to re-brand. We already know from televised debate that some Scots would call us The Lesser United Kingdom - I don't think this would be a winner in a poll of the UK after Scotland. Perhaps the pragmatic answer is for both sides in the debate choose what name they use (after all this already happens)?

"... the fact that it will be a different state should Scotland secede..." - It will be the same State unless the proposal is one of dissolution in which case I'd suggest more than 10% of the electorate should have a say. Scotland have a chance to leave the State it shouldn't imv have the exclusive vote to dissolve it.

"John Lennon and the Quarrymen": - What were they quarrying - expanded polystyrene?

"...ICE trains from Hamburg to Kiel..." - I think these run on new routes and so wouldn't figure in a 1913 guide?

[Caterham 7]"...more like riding the 'Death Bike' perhaps..." I'll take your word for this.

"...BMW has just released an electric car..." - Indeed they have sent me a glossy magazine featuring one. VW too.

"...aging VW 'ragtop'..." - I liked the 'Jeep' rag top we had a while back because I could hear approaching traffic (before I could see it) at wooded junctions.

"...never worn a /flared/ yellow jumpsuit..." - I should hope not!

I'm outa here...

bs

hi rg

>> I always thought of Great Britain as a place (named by The Romans).<<

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stormeducational.co.uk/romans/everyday_life/Images/britain2.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.stormeducational.co.uk/romans/everyday_life/britain.htm&h=416&w=410&sz=11&tbnid=TPkpAHszVHFLuM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=89&zoom=1&usg=__WoNShn2zD3xiEJIc_6JgE2pWTQM=&docid=yFZcEQZdIa2ytM&sa=X&ei=aN2LUoa7I4v07Aay74CwBA&sqi=2&ved=0CJYBEP4dMA0

'Caledonia is the Latin name given by the Romans to the land in today's Scotland north of their province of Britannia, beyond the frontier of their empire.'


>>'That those outside of the UK think of what we chose to call ourselves as 'absurd' doesn't strike me as a high priority need to rush to re-brand. We already know from televised debate that some Scots would call us The Lesser United Kingdom - I don't think this would be a winner in a poll of the UK after Scotland. Perhaps the pragmatic answer is for both sides in the debate choose what name they use (after all this already happens)?'>>

The Great seems to have already gone:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/8771077/David-Cameron-campaigns-to-put-the-Great-back-in-Britain.html


but perhaps the secession of Scotland might warrant the adoption of a modernised 'Britannia'; the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland.

>> It will be the same State..>>

I'm not really clear in what sense an United Kingdom made up of England, wales and Northern Ireland could be considered the 'same state' as a United Kingdom made up of England, Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland.

>>unless the proposal is one of dissolution in which case I'd suggest more than 10% of the electorate should have a say. Scotland have a chance to leave the State it shouldn't imv have the exclusive vote to dissolve it.>>

Scotland is voting to secede from the UK not dissolve it. If Wales and Northern Ireland also voted to secede would that constiture a de facto dissolution of the UK?

>> What were they quarrying - expanded polystyrene? <>

Perhaps, tea chests? Actually, the name came from Quarry Bank School of which Lennon was pupil.

>> I think these run on new routes and so wouldn't figure in a 1913 guide?<<

Map of Germany including railways circa 1900:

http://members.kos.net/sdgagnon/mila01.jpg

Though presumably Portaloo's travel were accomplished on the modern railway rather than a virtual 1913 one.


>> I'll take your word for this.<<

On the 'Death Bike' one at least has the illusion of being in control while as a passenger in the C7...

>>Indeed they have sent me a glossy magazine featuring one. VW too. <<

We have 'Bitte Kein Werbung' sticker which has proven quite effective against junk mail.

>> I liked the 'Jeep' rag top we had a while back because I could hear approaching traffic (before I could see it) at wooded junctions.<<.

Wasn't the 'Jeep' also conspicuously lacking in doors, etc. which might have helped the acoustics? I don't see us thinking about an electric car until a German ( I say this assuming the SO will remain unaware of the Lotus built Tesla Roadster) ragtop comes along.

>> I should hope not! <<

The SO is to much the urban fashionista to do so though in the early 1970s I briefly sported a pair of purple crushed velvet loons...

>>I'm outa here... <<

Bon Voyage

bs

Hi Bx4 The trains... "He travels to Leipzig on a historic railway line, built by British engineers in 1839" http://h2g2.com/user/U8367429/conversation/view/F7737541/T5164739/page/last#P110809213 so at least this part of the journey followed the course of a railway extant in 1913. The bikes... "...the illusion of being in control..." - been there with two and four cylinders. Death Bike not required! The ads... "...'Bitte Kein Werbung'..." I like that you flatter my German (which I'm ashamed of when considered with the possession of an Rheinland-Pfalz ancestry in part). The 'Jeep'... "...lacking in doors..." - Our jalopy had doors; we weren't keen on the disconcerting way they would swing open by themselves on negotiating roundabouts. The fashion... "...pair of purple crushed velvet loons..." Wowza The band... "...Quarry Bank School..." - Another cultural black hole starts to fill. Bon Voyage... - Thank you! I'm aiming for the sun for a week or two from tomorrow. The Pols... - A bit later. bs

Hi Bx4

The trains... "He travels to Leipzig on a historic railway line, built by British engineers in 1839" [link chopped] so at least this part of the journey followed the course of a railway extant in 1913.

The bikes... "...the illusion of being in control..." - been there with two and four cylinders. Death Bike not required!

The ads... "...'Bitte Kein Werbung'..." I like that you flatter my German.

The 'Jeep'... "...lacking in doors..." - Our jalopy had doors; we weren't keen on the disconcerting way they would swing open by themselves on negotiating roundabouts.

The fashion... "...pair of purple crushed velvet loons..." Wowza

The band... "...Quarry Bank School..." - Another cultural black hole starts to fill.

Bon Voyage... - Thank you!

The Pols... - A bit later.

[I've chopped the post up a bit something caused it not to go through first time.]

bs

Hi Bx4

The pols: "The Roman invasion of Britain was arguably the most significant event ever to happen to the British Isles. It affected our language, our culture, our geography, our architecture and even the way we think. Our island has a Roman name, its capital is a Roman city and for centuries (even after the Norman Conquest) the language of our religion and administration was a Roman one." http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/questions_01.shtml

"...The Great seems to have already gone:.." - I fail to see why we should change the name of the island we live on because successive politicians have screwed up the countries co-located there.

"...the United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland..." - No thanks. By all means let the Scots call Scotland what they like perhaps even to reflect their FM's aspirations; "Poundland" anyone? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10451005/Double-dose-of-bluster-as-First-Minister-fails-to-tackle-key-issues.html

"...I'm not really clear in what sense an United Kingdom made up of England, wales and Northern Ireland could be considered the 'same state' as a United Kingdom made up of England, Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland..." - Nothing will change politically so far as those outside of Scotland are concerned. On the other hand if the intention is otherwise perhaps it's time our politicians came clean? I know I've asked before. Are there any plans (outside of Scotland I mean) to change the UK once Scotland secedes? (Obviously marching Scottish MPs and Lords out of Westminster should be a given though I wouldn't put anything past the duplicitous politicians who didn't bring us the Lisbon Treaty referendum).

"...If Wales and Northern Ireland also voted to secede would that constiture a de facto dissolution of the UK?.." - Pie in the sky. (There's no oil to lubricate a getaway).

That said it would be nice to see Wessex rise again.

Here's hoping I'm allowed to post...

bs

Hi rg

Intermittent but frequent home hub problem. Extended reply impractible

Replacement tomorrow - hopefully

Bs

hi rg

Not the 'home hub' but the (external) fibre optic cable.

'our island has a Roman name, its capital is a Roman city and for centuries (even after the Norman Conquest) the language of our religion and administration was a Roman one'.<<

A not untypical piece of anglocentrism from Pravda-in-the Wen though the link also says:

' the Scots and Irish were proud of the fact that they had never been conquered by Rome.'

Which while true to fact that areas of the British isles called by the Romans Caledonia and Hibernia were never part of the Provinicia Britannia nor thus of the Roman Empire:

http://www.iadb.co.uk/romans/getimage.php?F=images/0001.gif&W=200&H=178.32817337461

the emotional attribution seems highly problematic.

>>I fail to see why we should change the name of the island we live on because successive politicians have screwed up the countries co-located there.<<

You have somewhat misunderstood my point which was a jibe at the humptydumptyism of Slick Dave and his ilk who misunderstand the geographical meaning of 'Great' as it is used in 'Great Britain'.

'The term Great Britain was first used during the reign of King James I of England (James VI of Scotland) in 1603, to refer to the separate kingdoms of England and Scotland on the same landmass,...'

'United Kingdom of Great Britain' was formed in 1707 by the Act of Union that created a single kingdom with a single Parliament.'

http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain/britain.htm

If Scotland secedes the Act of Union, 1707, will thereby be revoked leading to the dissolution of the political entity Great Britain andproducing two successor states, Scotland and those countries that form a United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Since the government of the rUk post secession will not be the sovereign power over the whole of the landmass called Great Britain it would seem unlikely that it would retain the name of that landmass as part of its name. However:

'Great Britain and Britain do not mean the same thing.

Great Britain is made up of Scotland, England and Wales, where as Britain is just England and Wales.'(ibid)

So the 'Great' could simply be dropped.

>>Poundland<<

'Labour leader Johann Lamont raised the issue in First Minister's Questions in the wake of remarks by Yes campaign leader Dennis Canavan, who said an independent currency and central bank was his "preferred option".

Mr Salmond said the Scottish Government favoured keeping the pound in a sterling zone with the remainder of the United Kingdom, but did not exclude alternative scenarios.'

A somwhat different account from that of the Torygraph.

http://news.stv.tv/politics/223806-alex-salmond-declines-to-rule-out-independent-scottish-currency/

>>.. Nothing will change politically so far as those outside of Scotland are concerned. On the other hand if the intention is otherwise perhaps it's time our politicians came clean? I know I've asked before. Are there any plans (outside of Scotland I mean) to change the UK once Scotland secedes?<<

Well the number of Labour and Liberal Democrats in the HoC would, unlikely the Tories, be significantly reduced but I was not referring to political changes but to names that will be adopted by the successor states. There is of course a precedent from a previous secession from the UK:

'A hundred years later the Act of Union of 1801 joined Ireland to 'Great Britain' and the name "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" was first used. (Since 1921 only Northern Ireland has been part of the United Kingdom and so the name changed' [in 1927].'

http://resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain/britain.htm

>>Pie in the sky.<<
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/sinn-fein-wants-another-referendum-for-northern-ireland-to-join-republic-1-2086932

>>That said it would be nice to see Wessex rise again.<<

Well Strathclyde and Lothian rose again when the Tories reorganisedsed local government in Scotland but the equivalent in england was a bit of a pig's breakfast and Wessex did not rise.

Slick Dave out-faraging tha faragistas?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/28/world/europe/cameron-urges-limits-on-immigrants-welfare-benefits.html?_r=0

Strange to see the Laird of Glenbogle in Borgen.


bs

Hi Bx4

I've got various family & domestic issues going on just now (one of the more minor of which is a chronically unreliable Internet connection).

I've not forgotten you and hope to write again soon.

bs