h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

In other times (for example, the height of Greek culture) one did not have to be "gay" to enjoy same-sex sex.

And in other cultures, lesbianism is also not considered contrary to heterosexuality; in some cultures where polygamism is allowed, handmaids or personal servants fulfill the sexual needs of women who are one of many "wives" to one man.

Different cultures have different attitudes towards homosexuality. We in the west have black-and-white/ either-or attitudes about everything. Why should sexuality be any different?

Some people claim it is "unnatural." These people obviously have never owned dogs, which will hump anything that moves (and some things that don't). Male dogs will try to mate with other male dogs, and females will climb on top of other females. Many apes practice sex play with other apes of either sex, and even with their mothers. Young male horses will also practice this sort of sex play. It seems to be a common thing among mammals that live in groups.

Personally, I think it is normal and natural, and most of us "straight" folks have at some time in our lives had some level of attraction to someone of the same sex. Perhaps not sexual attraction, maybe it was intellectual, or social, or what have you. Many women claim to have had the same feelings of "just knowing" they would click when they met their best girlfriend that people often claim to have felt when they met their future spouse. People develop fascinations with neighbors, friends, movie stars. But because we tend to compartmentalize sex as something different from all these things, we don't allow ourselves to see the connections. So we don't let ourselves see it, but instinctively we know it's there. And I think that's where the fear and bigotry and hatred comes from. People see in themselves how possible it could be, and they are so terrified of it that they push it away as hard as they can by hating it.

Here's an interesting party game to ask your straight friends. Say "If you WERE to be gay, who would you choose to be with...?" (hint; to avoid possible uncomfortable silences, you might want to have everyone pick a famous person as opposed to someone they know personally!!). Experience shows me that most of us women almost immediately think of someone, while most men get quiet and uncomfortable and say "Um, I never thought of it.... how would I know...." and that sort of thing.

I find that odd.

I've never looked at it in that perspective. Though I know exactly who I'd be with if I were gay, if it had to be someone I knew. I don't know if I could pick a celeb. Maybe... but I don't even fixate on female celebs.

~Irving

Well seeing as I only read it inthe tabloid press it may not be reliable but it worked for me.

It said that if the index finger was shorter than the ring finger there was a fair chance of the person being gay. If it was level or reversed it was a fair chance of being straight.

As I said it was in the tabloid press and one of the guys at work came over to me to check it out. I think I was getting used as a test case.

I want to be quite careful about how I say this but... I honestly believe that in a game like that most (nominally straight) men simply *haven't* thought about it before. I suspect many of us have had some sort of homosexual experience, teenage years are awash with hormones and curiosity , but picking someone off the top of your head? Erm...

Having said that, I struggled to come up with a top 10 list of women I'd like to sleep with

I like the idea of the question, but I think to be fair to everyone you should ask them to name one person from each sex, that way, whatever your orientation you have to make a choice (D***,I forgot all you bi-sexuals, now how do we get round that one?).

BTW, if I ever think of someone I'll let you all know

No animals, no children, and nothing without consent, other than that...enjoy.

I'm going to post this, make of it what you will.

~ BS

I think you're right, BluesSlider, in saying that most men HADN'T thought about it. Most women haven't really, either. But they will pick someone they think is pretty, or they would like to be like, or what have you.

Men and women view these things differently. If a woman is setting a man up on a date with one of her female friends, and the man asks "Is she pretty?" the woman will usually be able to answer without much trouble. If a woman asks the same question of a man about one of his friends ("Is he cute?") the man will generally trip over himself saying things like "How would I know if he's cute." Not sure where that comes from, and I HAVE found that as I've gotten older it's less of a problem. The men I know now don't get so nervous.

Perhaps it has something to do with something Irving mentioned earlier: you don't want people to think you're gay if you're not, even if you have no problems with the concept. Just like you wouldn't want people to think you're married if you're not, or you wouldn't want people to, oh, I don't know.... think you're a vegetarian if you're not (I use the last example because it's something that actually happened to me.) Perhaps young men think that if they call another guy handsome, people will think they are gay. I'm honestly not sure. Any feedback on that one, guys?

billypilgrim, your last point made me smile. I had a reputation at school for being gay because I once said something about a boy being good looking and expressing the view that 'if that's what they want to do I don't have a problem with it.'. Fortunately, this reputation was not accompanied by any serious abuse (that I recall noticing anyway ) and I had enough confidence in my own sexuality to get no little amusement out of continuing to make the odd provocative statement. But I think you are right in the point you are making, I was lucky in that I didn't care, but others, particularly in teenage years may find themselves subject to rumour and innuendo which they find difficult to take.

Erm, sorry, this subject is taking me into rambling posts but in some ways it's a stream of consciousness thing.

I was just starting to think that "Topic Drift" was taking over, but then I realized that the best way to combat the hatred and violence which Irving mentioned at the beginning of this post IS to not be afraid to rattle on about it, openly and honestly.

I can see where someone wouldn't want people to think they were gay if they weren't. Especially in the school years; it could make dating prospects pretty bleak.

I once went to a gay club with my best girlfriend to see a band. Her boyfriend was out of town, and I wasn't dating anyone at that time, and so we went alone. It was a local band who was semi-retired, and we really wanted to see them.

Anyway, to walk into a gay bar with another woman in my somewhat backward small city really put my open-mindedness to the test. We went in, and we ended up having a good time too. But I think that none of us wants to be perceived as something we're not. The aforementioned vegetarian incident took years to disprove. I would be out getting something to eat with this group of people who somehow thought I was a vegerarian, and they would never cease to be shocked when I ordered meat. . If something so benign as food preference can be a difficult label to shake, I imagine that being assumed to be gay, or for that matter straight, when one isn't would be a bit disconcerting.

And now I'm the one rambling....

I guess the problem that all of us who've posted here are struggling with is how to understand and deal with the sort of intolerance that leads to such acts as the one described in the first posting (without becoming intolerant ourselves).

The only thing I can think of is to teach by example and support tolerance wherever we can.

I

I agree with you BS, by showing a positive example I guess people will stop taking it as such an issue and then learn to tolerate and integrate completely.

At my school -- well, amongst us theatre freaks, anyhow -- we often jokingly pretended to be homosexual, something the girls looked much more comfortable doing than the guys. I'm now trying to decide whether this was, in fact, a homophobic way to act. To me, it was just a matter of proving to myself that I was comfortable in my own sexuality, that I new I was straight, so I didn't mind playing around with other guys. There was a month junior year where the guys were all kissing eachother on the lips, just to say they'd done it.

At least I think I'm comfortable with it. I've noticed that since these discussions have been going on I've pointed out my heterosexuality several times, and I'm wondering... anyway, I don't think stuff like this is rambling. It's not like we can combat hate by speaking about how much we hate hate. It's much more fruitfull to explore the entire issue within a group like this, isn't it?

~Irving

I wouldn't worry to much Irving you seem to be resonably content with who you are. You are synpathetic to the problems that intolerance causes, but anybody can be sensitive. Some straight guys think they cannot show sensitivity because they have a fear that other will consider them to be gay, however, it is merely a part of our being that Western society has tried to eliminate from being evident.

The old addage that boys don't cry is a falasy. Boys/men should be allowed to show emmotion and not be categorised as gay, which is a lifestyle choice. If you are happy being who you are coninue being. If you are not look at it and look at it seriously. But whatever you realise you are you need to be that, and as it says in the submission guidelines I think be yourself.

pretending to be a lesbian couple is something that my girlfriends do from time to time, it puts a guy right off if you're not interested, or are freaked by them, is the theory, although some think that a guy will be more likely to persue them to see if he can stop them from being lesbian... personally I never have; I don't know how right it is to play on stereotypes, and to pretend to be something you aren't.

Know what gets me angry? Earlier this year I was interested in this girl, and got to be somewhat friends with her, enough to where she was telling me about problems with the girl she'd been seeing. Upon telling any of my male friends that I had a crush on a girl who turned out to be a lesbian, too many of them replied "Did you ask if you could watch?".

Last I heard, women were not put on the earth simply to please men, and certainly lesbians have a right to be in their own relationships without having to gratify some sick guy's fantasies.

Sorry if this is off topic, but your mention of potentially turning guys off by acting as lesbians brought it to mind.

~Irving

Raises the interesting question. Would your friends have allowed a gay person in to watch them? I think not.

Thats sad, I don't think its off topic 'cause you wouldn't expect to ask a straight couple, i guess. ugh, how horrid.

Can just say, as a very clever scientific mind (so I'm told) if it was a recessive trait, the you'd see about 25% of people exhibiting it, rather than 10%. Also, It can't be genetic, because th genes wouldn't get passed on through sexual reproduction, unless it is a reccuring 'mutation' (using mutation in it's purely scientific sense) in which case a) we should see the same energence pattern and b) it's perfectly acceptable anyway, so why all the fuss?

Wow, so the science suggests choice not genes.

I guess so, put like that. Well, I think it's definitely personal preference. I mean, Your genes don't determine what colours or foods you like do they? Why should taste in prospective partner be any different?

Tough one on the foods. I've inherited my mother's allergies, and my weather induced headaches. But they are results of mutated genes which can be passed on in the 50% of chornosones that I recieved from my mother.