h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Insight

This is a most disappointing post David, for it shows that in the end you are no more enlightened than Justin. You would accept the rulership of a deity who openly proclaims Himself to be so cruel and so base, simply so that you may bask in His reflected glory in a promised paradise.

Is this really what you believe?

By the rules you describe I shall be punished and excluded from your paradise, not because I am wicked or evil but because I have a different perspective on the divine nature of being.

People like Member and Az will be excluded because His servants have been unable to convince them of your truth. They failed, so Member and Az will be punished.

And you wonder why your religious path is petering out? Why alternative and more compassionate paths are appearing and gaining 'converts'.

What you propose was enacted in the death camps. Guards would single out individual prisoners and offer them life if they would bow to the Nazi creed, if they would serve the Nazi's Fuhrer. Some did and were spared, for a while. The remainder died in terrible suffering.

It disgusts me, as it does all free-thinking people of a spiritual nature.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

Alji,

Because the point I was making is that the definition is there in an English dictionary, that you don't need to have studied Christianity to know the meanings of the word 'fear' as used in the Bible.


Well, they're best answered by the full Bible rather than one particular scripture, some of the answers would be very long and complex if given fully, and many of them have surely been discussed before on the 'fact or fiction' thread, and you'll just look for ways to criticise them without giving them any unbiased consideration, but for the sake of others, particularly minnie who may benefit from them, I'll try my best to answer them fairly briefly, with particular scriptures.


Surely you're already familiar with the first few chapters of Genesis.


Ecclesiastes 12:13, and Acts 17:26,27 tell us that the primary purpose of our lives is to cultivate a relationship with God.
Genesis 1:28 also tells us that part of our purpose is to look after the Earth, as well as producing more intelligent life.


How could we have a true relationship with God, as just mentioned, if we were not conscious beings?


This has been discussed many times, including a few hours ago, and in a lot of detail. To sum it up very briefly though, the Genesis account tells us how sin came into the world, and Romans 6:23 tells us that sin causes death. The Mosaic Law, in the first five books, gives the divine standard of justice, eye for eye, hand for hand, soul for soul. 1 Corinthians 15:21,22 shows how that ransom has been paid. And the book of Job gives an explanation of why time is being left to show that some men are willing to serve God even under trial. I could go on, but I think I'm already stepping outside what can really be called brevity.


All of the above answer is also of relevance to this question, but mainly the stuff in Genesis, showing that man turned against God, preferring to serve himself. This is quite similar to the question of why our governments are unsatisfactory, since it is they who initiate most large-scale violence in our history. But I can't currently think of a quick, single scripture answer to this question. Most of these answers you will only really understand once you have the full picture of the Bible. But I'll keep trying.


This is basically the point again about becoming sinners, and sin bringing death.


Because it isn't the natural course of our lives. We were not created to die. The Genesis account shows that death was a punishment, not the original purpose. Many things in the Bible tell us that everlasting life is still the hope for the future. (Mark 10:17, John 3:16, Romans 2:6,7, Galatians 6:8, Titus 1:2, Jude 21)


Again, this is basically asking about the governments, since it is they who make war. We'll get to that.


This is basically answered in the Bible's telling us that God created us. If God created us, shouldn't we expect that he would make us inclined by default to want to do what is right? (See also Romans 2:14,15)


Again, without emotions we could not fulfill our purpose in having a relationship with God.


I notice I've already answered this. When I was thinking of questions, I must either have forgot that I'd already asked this, or have meant something else when I said, 'And why?'.


Jeremiah 10:23 tells us that man hasn't the wisdom or right to govern himself. But more importantly, in Luke 4:5-8, Satan points out that he is the one that controls all the governments of the Earth, and Jesus doesn't disagree with this. Other scriptures confirm that he currently has this authority. And a recurring theme in the Bible is that men (including world rulers), being sinners, cannot keep their paths straight without God's help.


Because, as said earlier, our lifetime was meant to be much longer - endless, in fact.


Because God designed them that way. Isaiah 45:18 says that the world was created for us, and it could be our home if our existence wasn't possible here. Several of these questions are answered simply by the Bibles explanation that God created us.


Because, as said earlier, to have a spiritual relationship is a large part of our purpose.

I think that's the best I can do in such a short time and space. It's quite limited, but maybe it'll give you some idea of how much of the fundamental nature of our life the Bible explains.

Ahem.

<>

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Member?

Why have you changed your name?



az

Insight wrote;
"Because the point I was making is that the definition is there in an English dictionary, that you don't need to have studied Christianity to know the meanings of the word 'fear' as used in the Bible."

But the meaning is ambiguous as sown by 'Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology'

"Surely you're already familiar with the first few chapters of Genesis."
The story in Genesis is a Myth! Do you believe God planted bones to fool us into thinking that the earth is older than 6000 years or do you believe that man was around when old T Rex was alive.


Alji

imho there is a lot of evil in the world. God= good, Devil = evil, FULL STOP.

Actually, I believe it talks about dinosaurs in genesis!

It's getting late now, to answer everything that has appeared, but a few things:


You, of course, never do this in the slightest.



But both of you seem unable to recognise that whether or not a person is innocent is judged not by your limited human opinions, but by the 'opinion' of someone who knows and understands everything. Who is it, other than you, that states that it is someone innocent who is in question?


Why do you take two sentences from different parts of a text and percieve one as necessarily referring to the other? What reason do you have to consider that the words 'It is necessity' was referring to the Holocaust, which was mentioned only briefly, quite a few sentences earlier? Unless you are deliberately trying to misunderstand what is being written so as to be able to make silly accusations?


Wishing to avoid the profanity that this statement could so easily provoke, I will simply say that what you say is baseless. The things you have mentioned do nothing to suggest there is no God, much evidence from them suggests the opposite.


I've never said anything like that. The only one who's come up with that idea is you. And perhaps Justin.


Of course I do. I did, after all, state the reason in the previous sentence.
And was the Holocaust such a price to pay to prove that God's rule is better than man's? The Jehovah's Witnesses who were in the death camps, and could have been released if they had renounced their faith, didn't think so. They believed, like Jesus, that God's honour was worth dying for if necessary, especially since God has promised a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous - that includes all who were victims of the Holocaust, be they witnesses, Jews or anyone else.


I didn't say He killed them because of love, but that He killed them despite his love. Think of a dog that has attacked a child. In this country, it will be put down. Why? Is it because it has been deemed to have an evil character? Is it because it's owner now hates it? It may still be loved, but it will unfortunately have to be put down, because it is dangerous.
People who refuse to obey God are the reason society is the way it is today. They are the reason why all pain, suffering and death exist, even death of old age. They are a danger to the human race, including themselves. What can be done, if they are unwilling to change?


State your proof of this.


Evidently argument I make about this not being done out of cruelty is to no purpose, so I will simply say that I accept God's rulership out of respect for my creator, not to bask in any glory. The paradise hope is what strengthens us when we feel weak, not what motivates us.


If you are killed, and let us not jump to that conclusion just yet, it will be basically because you have been unwilling to accept Jesus as having paid the price for your sin, death, and will therefore have to pay that price for yourself.


Does Member sound willing to listen to reason? Don't parts of his reply suggest quite strongly that he has made a deliberate effort not to understand the reasoning I have given? It will be because he is unwilling, not unable, to understand the reasoning he has heard.
We have been discussing death. It is certainly possible, if you wish, to envisage Jehovah as laughing with glee as He kills people. It is equally possible, and in line with the rest of the Bible, to envisage Jehovah holding His head in sorrow as the standard of justice, observed by Him with His infinite knowledge and understanding to be the only fair standard possible, forces Him to do this. But you and Az choose not to see it that way, however much I try to bring that picture to your attention. Will any unbiased observer of all these conversations consider that I have not done enough to present God in a loving light, having the necessity upon Him to do things that he would prefer not to? But you wish to hold to this belief that if He does such things then He must be doing them out of cruelty. Can anything dissuade you from that view? It doesn't seem so. So have ministers failed to give you arguments, or have you failed to accept them?


The numbers of Jehovah's Witnesses are not decreasing, and if they were, I wouldn't wonder why, I would attribute it to people preferring to follow their own laws rather than God's.


People in the death camps were not killed for their unrighteousness. That's quite a big difference between the two situations.

<>

Does Insight?

What does believing in a myth and calling it God and thinking that you are right and all others are wrong have to do with reason?

az

'What does believing in a myth and calling it God and thinking that you are right and all others are wrong have to do with reason?'

What does believing that Insight has no basis for believing in God, and calling his religion a 'myth,' have to do with reason?

We're all equally capable of calling other people wrong.

I forgot - HAPPY BIRTHDAY AZ!!!

- Jordan

'People like Member and Az will be excluded because His servants have been unable to convince them of your truth. They failed, so Member and Az will be punished.'

He didn't actually say that, did he?

I don't see anywhere it says that Member and Az will be judged by the same standards as his servants. Surely the opposite is more likely - a nearly omnipotent God can determine what's going on in someone's mind, and thus judge them fairly?

'I shall be punished...'

He doesn't say you'll be punished, he simply says you'll cease to exist. Isn't that precisely what most of the people you're talking about profess to believe anyway?

I simply can't get over the idea that my death will be forever and irrevocable, and I hate that thought. It doesn't make a difference to me whether it's because of the laws of physics or the laws of morality.

- Jordan

Hello, Jordan I agree with you.

hi Jordan,

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I didn't say that Insight has no basis for believing in his God, although it seems to me that most religious beliefs have no real 'basis' other than the desire to believe. Anyhow, I think everyone has a right to believe in whatever god or religion they want to and so I did not call Insight wrong for believing in his God. But I do think the attitude that 'my god is better than your god!' and especially 'my God is the One and Only God!' is not only childish but also potentially dangerous.

I call all religions and their gods myths, Jordan, not just the christian one, because that is how I see them. I don't worship any god nor believe in any one religion. I don't find it 'reasonable' to blindly believe what is written in any one book. Nor to I find it necessary to live my life based on a fear of what will happen to me after I die.

I really cannot see how people will ever be able to live together in peace as long as their gods cannot.

az

ps
Jordan - thanks for the birthday wish!


hi Insight,

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Responding to your posting to Alji in which you tried to show how the bible explains life, the universe and everything . . . well, your explanations only work if one believes in this bible. Just reading your bible quotes has certainly not 'explained' anything to me nor made my understanding of life, the universe and everything any clearer.

Basically your response to almost everything is: because it says so in the bible. Well, that may be well and good for you, but it sure means nothing to me. Is there any other way you can explain your beliefs and opinions without using bible quotes?

az

I believe in god because i have felt him(it) Also,my prayers have been answered. Not believing, for me, is like saying, I have never felt love, therefore, love doesnt exist!

Insight,

(me)
<> (you)

<> (you)

Right, state *your* proof of this without using a bible quote. The 'proof' of my previous statement is simply that we do not kill those that we love just because they will not obey us. Your comparison of killing a mad dog doesn't wash because to kill a mad dog is logical and reasonable. To wipe out an entire city including innocent adults and children is neither of these things, and is it very far from anything that could be considered a loving act (unless one believes in your God and your bible).

<>

Oh, you mean God allowed the holocaust to happen just to *show* us that His rule is better? Teach us a lesson? And presumably He was doing this out of love again? Personally I think it was an outrageous 'price to pay', Insight. A loving parent does not beat its child to death merely to 'teach it a lesson'.

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I would say that ministers have failed to give me logical and reasonable arguments and that I have refused (not failed) to accept their version of TRUTH.

az

hi minniemouse,

I have never said that gods don't exist. I simply do not believe that religions represent TRUTH. And I don't believe what we call god(s) is something to be worshipped and obeyed.

<>

Yes, but you don't go around worshipping love. You don't pray to love. You don't think love is something that exists separately from yourself. Do you?

az

Hi Insight

It's good to see you back on form, so let's get to it

"People in the death camps were not killed for their unrighteousness. That's quite a big difference between the two situations."

Ah, but these people were, in the eyes of those that killed them. The Nazi's laid all the ills of their world at the feet of those they condemned to the camps. They believed they were making the future safe for their kind and creating an aryan paradise on earth. This is why I used them as an example. What makes them different in philosophy to your God?

"People who refuse to obey God are the reason society is the way it is today. They are the reason why all pain, suffering and death exist, even death of old age. They are a danger to the human race, including themselves. What can be done, if they are unwilling to change?"

That is a pretty sweeping statement Insight. Are you saying that amongst people that obey your God, pain, suffering and death do not exist? It occurs to me that the only people I have met who truly try to obey all your God's many contradictory laws are the Amish, yet pain, suffering and death stalk their communities also.

"Evidently argument I make about this not being done out of cruelty is to no purpose, so I will simply say that I accept God's rulership out of respect for my creator, not to bask in any glory. The paradise hope is what strengthens us when we feel weak, not what motivates us."

When you can show that your God and His servants have reached every man, woman and child on the planet and offered them a clear choice to accept Him, and thus avoid their fate, then I may begin to see 'the light'. Every day millions perish in sin that have never known Him, yet he still kills them and refuses them entry to the next life.

Your philosophy says that your God gave us free will out of all creatures. What use is this if the price of exercising this is death eternal? If the only way to live is to forsake it for a life of obedience to His wishes? It is the contradictory nature of ideas such as this that drives people away from your God. He is both whimsical and cruel, and my definition of the word cruel does not mean 'killing from kindness'.

"If you are killed, and let us not jump to that conclusion just yet, it will be basically because you have been unwilling to accept Jesus as having paid the price for your sin, death, and will therefore have to pay that price for yourself."

And here we reach a primary point, my sin. I have sin apparently because a distant ancestor was tricked into transgressing a law. Adam was a victim, but for this transgression every one of his descendants has sin. Nice one God, lovely example of your divine justice, not.

I could live a totally blameless life, but because of this inherent sin if I do not accept, or even do not hear of, your Lord's "sacrifice", I am damned. By any standard of jusrisprudence this is perverse.

Now I am not suggesting that I have lived a blameless life, far from it, but in the philosophy of my path I try to make restitution for my mistakes in this life, not expect anyone else to take the blame for me.

And what price pray did Jesus pay? Depending on your type of christianity he is either part of a holy trinity and thus immortal anyway, or was made immortal upon his resurrection. Even his death was relatively quick and painless compared to the average man being crucified. Sorry don't buy it. The millions that have followed him have paid a price, and often a terrible one, as have those that didn't (often in his name). His death changed nothing, it proved nothing, it was utterly pointless except to those that would glorify it to the point of legend.

"Does Member sound willing to listen to reason? "

Indeed he is and that's his point. I have reasoned with him in the past and gained his agreement, even on some quite controversial topics. You, however, have not. The internally contradictory nature of your message does not lend itself to the definition of 'reason'. While the basic underlying line in your message is so base, and so poorly communicated, it cannot convince anyone with an ounce of reason. Thus billions will die because you (and that is a collective 'you') have failed to find a good reason that we should listen to your cruel master.

"Will any unbiased observer of all these conversations consider that I have not done enough to present God in a loving light, having the necessity upon Him to do things that he would prefer not to?"

Your concept of God is that he is omniescent, omnipresent and omnipotent. There is no necessity for Him to do any such thing. If He wished he could have us all live in Groundhog Day until we come to see the light. But He doesn't, he lets some of us have one go at it, just one. He hides His message altogether from the rest, or places upon them such social, cultural or physical burdens that they will never see the light.

However, He chooses not to, so what does that tell us about Him? If He is the loving, merciful Creator you propose, full of sorrow for His creations, then why has He designed a world in which only a tiny minority have any chance of salvation whatsoever? It doesn't make any sense and this is why Chrisitanity is failing.

Blessings,
Matholwch /|\.

But your judgement that god knows and understands everything is purely a limited human opinion. In order for it to be definitively valid you'd have to know and understand everything yourself. Catch 22.



I have to agree with az; yes it was. And the fact that JWs in the camps were prepared to die rather than embrace Nazism, while admirable, doesn't change that. Nor did it prove that God's rule is better than man's. Sure, it proved man's rule can be a dreadful thing, but where are the comparison examples, either of relatively enlightened human societies, or, more importantly, of the beneficent nature of God's rule? Spanish inquisition? The Crusades? The conquest of the promised land?



Again, agreeing with az, love is not an entity, it's a state of mind.
Actually for some people the comparison is quite apt. God is not an entity - he's a state of mind.

Noggin

minniemouse, there are some who would say that it was not God but the Devil you felt. There are many people who have had this same feeling but they are not all Christian.

Alji