h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Personally, I think that a penis is often a diseased and perhaps even parasitic organ that needs treatment quite desperately.


The White House certainly needs severe treatment for the penis in it.


But seriously, Blatherskite, whatever the accuracy of your "symptoms" of pregnancy, pregnancy is a normal function of a great many animals, including the human one. Paradoxically, I understand and actually agree with your parasite description of the fetus, as far as it goes. But then, the mitochondria and nucleus of our cells are in very much the same sense parasites. I'm not sure that the description really helps us in understanding our cells as much as the symbiote description does. And I'm not sure that the parasite description helps us in coming to terms with the abortion issue (except if we use the parasite description of blinkered fundamentalist males who really haven't examined the issue). And, the parasite description of pregnancy certainly doesn't help us in our discussion of a third of a megaton of sophisticated high explosives in the hands of nefarious individuals as a result of the Bush administration's mismanagement of the Iraq fiasco.

I'm glad of Mudhooks' vindication but I'm not going to hold my breath for that apology.

Once again, Della, you prove your expertise.

First of all, people seek cures for things as simple as a headache. Pregnancy is orders of magnitude more significant than a headache. What people choose to cure or not cure is entirely up to them, of course... which is my point.

Regarding your comments on the list of symptoms (which is in no way exhaustive), I have to wonder if you've ever been pregnant at all. The weight gained is a whole lot different than obesity. Breast swelling and tenderness are greater by orders of magnitude over normal hormonal effects. And do you really qualify the stomach cramps as equal to a normal hormone cycle, particularly the ones you get near the very end? Do you and your family puke a lot during your time of the month?

Naturally you didn't even address certain symptoms, but just cherry-picked a few to pretend like you'd covered the argument. And I didn't even address how it affects lifestyle, mobility, and quality of life. But according to you, being pregnant is just like any other time of life. Right.

And to continue your hot streak of poorly-considered, nonsensical rubbish, I must address "your comments are just bizarre and argue a purely emotional loathing of pregnancy for some reason I can't fathom. It's just odd." Mrs. Mugwump would have some very strong words with you over this one, and might possibly hurt you. And she would probably be absolved of all legal and moral responsibility due to symptom 7 of her infection, which has reached its seventh month.

My "daddy time" readings into a microphone feeding speakers held against her stomach can be characterized in many ways, but not as "purely emotional loathing." My wife and I went to great expense and suffered quite a lot to infect her, pushing the boundaries of the biological science to ensure success. Sound like an emotional loathing of pregnancy to you?

Once again, you're not only wrong, but you're horribly, contemptibly wrong. Honestly, I don't know why I even talk to you anymore.

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Don't be ridiculous. Just because I wasn't bowed under by "massive weight gain" you think you have a right to make such a silly remark! Your remarks about puking are even sillier. I have had three children - with the first I was throwing up all day every day, with the second, just normal morning sickness, with the third, not at all. *Every pregnancy is different!* (I know what you might think you mean - I had a friend who nearly died with hyperemesis gravidarum. But that's extremely rare and she was prepared to pout up with it. *Her* decision.)
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No, you cherry-picked them, to make pregnancy sound like a disease. Freud talked about penis envy. A feminist in the 1970s, maybe Adrienne Rich (who had three sons) talked about womb envy, something I am sure many men suffer from - and many of them exhibit sour grapes - denigrating what they can't have.
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I never said that! I'm just saying thst it's perfectly possible to live a normal life while pregnant. Billions of women all over the world, and through out history have managed it. Are managing it even as I write.
There's a Mrs Mugwump and she's pregnant? I am sorry to hear she's having such a hard time... as I said, every pregnancy is different. Like Mudhooks, I had placenta Praevia with my first,in 1972, so I know it's not a walk in the park.
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I don't know either, why do you?

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I don't know either, why do you?"

No matter how cynical I try to become, no matter how many times I repeat the mantra, "People are stupid," I keep holding on to this foolish ideal that people can be educated.

The whole "pregnancy as a disease" thing came about in the course of a normal and respectful debate on the abortion issue where people were attempting to define "life." That the fetus has a life of its own from the moment of fertilization cannot be denied, so the conversation moved towards the question of what type of life it actually is. I came up with the parasite model because it works.

Like a parasite, the fetus feeds off the mother. It is entirely dependent on the mother for survival. Like a virus, the mother is dramatically affected by the presence of the fetus. And it cannot be argued that the affects are beneficial. Like a viral infection, pregnancy has symptoms, and is diagnosed by a doctor. I don't have to cherry-pick the symptoms to make my point. In fact, the more that can be listed, the more solid my case becomes.

If a few bloody-minded pro-life jerks can be made to see the parallels between pregnancy and parasites, then they can either accept choice, or host Ebola.

But you'd rather make grossly inaccurate character judgements... now I've gone from hating pregnancy to envying it. Good grief.

"I never said that! I'm just saying thst it's perfectly possible to live a normal life while pregnant. Billions of women all over the world, and through out history have managed it. Are managing it even as I write."

Right. Billions of women are pregnant right now, and none of them have changed their habits in any meaningful way due to it. Pull the other one.

"pregnancy is a normal function of a great many animals, including the human one."

Colds, flu, ear infections, hair lice, and allergies are pretty normal functions, too.

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You have issues, Blatherskite. Your post is (as usual with you) riddled with insults. Many "bloody minded pro-life jerks" are women and some are pregnant whilst being pro-life. What do you suggest as a remedy? Mass abortion?

<< none of them have changed their habits in any meaningful way due to it. Pull the other one.>>
I didn't say they hadn't changed their habits, so don't try and twist my words.

Over three hundred tonnes of sophisticated high explosives. Missing. In Iraq.









'Colds, flu, ear infections, hair lice, and allergies are pretty normal functions, too.'

But, except in the case of auto-immune situations (with which I have some complicated and extremely close familiarity), which one might term self-allergies, the examples you use involve more than one species. Personally, I think the parasite analogy is instructive in many ways, but the one place where the analogy falls apart is that in pregnancy there is only one species involved. The process of pregnancy is in many ways analogous to parasitism, but, the fetus is the same species as the host, which is not the case . . .



. . . I would have argued by definition, in parasitism. I say 'I would have argued' but then I actually looked up 'parasite' and 'parasitism': http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parasite and, frankly, Blatherskite is pretty technically correct.

and, on the other subject:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/26/iraq.weapons.nbc.ap/index.html

*anhaga continues the futile attempt to sterr the conversatio back on track.

The fact is, all mammal and marsupial reproduction IS parasitic. That is the scientific definition of the type of reproduction in which the embryo lives off the parent. There are certain fish that also have parasitic reproduction. The fact, too, is that the body actually produces immune-system and anti-body-suppressing hormones which prevent the body from rejecting the embryo and fetus. Morning sickness and other "bothersome" symptoms appear to a greater or lesser degree in most pregnancies.

Unfortunately, some women do not produce enough of these hormonmes and either the embryo cannot attach istelf to the uterine wall or, once attached, these is a difficulty maintaining a pregnancy.

Unfortunately, it is often only after a number of miscarriages that it is determined that the woman has an inability to produce or produce enough of the hormones. Most doctors will not do the required test after three or four failed pregnancies, and all too often, they do not bother doing the test, anyway.

You see, I have done quite a bit of research on the topic, as I am one of those women who does not produce the necessary hormone. As a result, due to the fact that my body's natural anti-body production, all of 3 my pregnancies have failed. Unfortunately, my doctor was one of those conservative types who didn't bother ordering the tests. It was only diagnosed until far too late to correct.

Three hundred tonnes!!!

While the foetus may be called parasitic technically from a science perspective, pregnancy and childbirth are not solely or even inherently scientific endeavours. The problem with seeing pregnancy as a parastic process is that it leads to thinking that it is also a medical process, and the medicalisation of pregnancy and birth leads to poorer outcomes for women and babies.

I also think that some of the 'problems' listed such as morning sickness are probably integrally supportive of pregnancy rather than being just annoying side effects of the parasite (i.e morning sickness provides a necessary physiological process - I have heard this theorised but would have to look up the details).

In terms of miscarriage and the hormonal rejection of the foetus, it's likely that in some cases at least, miscarriage is the species way of removing unviable foetuses and is not necessarily a bad or pathological process (although obviously is still a major event for many women).

I do agree with the analogy in terms of the abortion debate because the foetus's survival is so dependant on the woman, which makes it's life her responsibility (i.e. it's her choice).


I don't know what to think about the missing explosives though mainly because I've forgotten what post 1 said.

Della: "You have issues, Blatherskite. Your post is (as usual with you) riddled with insults."

Don't try playing the victim. You've alternately accused me of loathing and then envying pregnancy, without basis nor accuracy. I've never called you anything but stupid, and I never did that until the preponderance of evidence could no longer be ignored.

Kea: "The problem with seeing pregnancy as a parastic process is that it leads to thinking that it is also a medical process, and the medicalisation of pregnancy and birth leads to poorer outcomes for women and babies."

Err... isn't it a medical process? If it's not, then we're wasting an awful lot of time at the doctor's lately. Those who fail to "medicalise" the process are the poorer for it, as prenatal care has been shown to dramatically increase survival rates for both mother and child.

I'd be very interested in a theory that shows how nausea and vomiting in a time where weight gain is crucial is somehow beneficial to the physiological process.

Anhaga: Three hundred tons of *sophisticated* explosives? What makes one explosive more sophisticated than another? Better pedigree? Fashionable accessories? Or just associating with the "right kind" of explosives?

Three hundred tons you say anhaga! That could put the mockers on someone's day.

Did you hear Dubya's counter (or was it Cheney?) to Kerry's assertion that the explosives are now in the hands of terrorists as a result of the administrations bumbling incomptence? It went along the lines of "If John Kerry had been president, tens of thousands of tons of high explosive would still be in the hands of Saddam Hussein".

Breathtaking logic.

>>Err... isn't it a medical process? If it's not, then we're wasting an awful lot of time at the doctor's lately. Those who fail to "medicalise" the process are the poorer for it, as prenatal care has been shown to dramatically increase survival rates for both mother and child.<<

Well you can intentionally medicalise the process, but that doesn't mean that the process itself is inherently medical. Women have been having babies for along time without doctors, and losts still do.

Antenatal care doesn't have to be a medical process either - most antenatal care in the world is provided by midwives (professional or lay).

There are strong links between the medicalisation of 'normal' pregnancies and poor outcomes eg the cascade effect where the earlier the medical intervention in labour the more likely there will be complications that require further medical intervention and so on. A common example of this is the use of epidurals, which means that women are immobilised, which means that the the labour slows which often leads to a caesarian.

In places like the US, which has highly medicalised childbirth, there are also the factors of litigation and doctor preference which are informing medical decisions more than health indications (hence the high caesarian rate in the US).


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I'd be very interested in a theory that shows how nausea and vomiting in a time where weight gain is crucial is somehow beneficial to the physiological process.<<

I'll have a search when I get the time.

This post has been removed.

"Well you can intentionally medicalise the process, but that doesn't mean that the process itself is inherently medical. Women have been having babies for along time without doctors, and losts still do."

"Medical" does not imply the intervention of a fully-qualified physician. When you clean and bandage your own cuts you are practicing medicine. Whether a doctor is present at birth or not is immaterial.

That applies to your postnatal comment as well. Anytime we clean the umbilical cord at home we are applying medical principles to protect our baby's health.

"A common example of this is the use of epidurals, which means that women are immobilised, which means that the the labour slows which often leads to a caesarian."

As opposed to, say, a situation where no caesarian is available, and another condition exists where caesarian would be necessary, so the baby and/or mother dies.

Part of practicing medicine is making the right decisions. Whether you (or your doctor) choose to use an epidural or not you are still practicing medicine.

Cmon, play nice! Who went and got yikesed?! Again, I didn't get to see it! And it's my bloody journal!

Blatherskite:

sophisticated in that the manufacturers wore cute white coats and had lots of shiny stainless steel vessels. As opposed to the kind we all make in our basements for various diplomatic visits.

It was me I'll ask the Eds to amend it and see if I can get it reinstated

et tu, Gosho?



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Declensional footnote: I have taken Gosho to be declinable on analogy with Carthago (Carthage) which would make the vocative case "Gosho" with a long final "o".


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Footnote footnote: I figure if the thread is going to be about abortion, parasitism, pregnancy, missing "sophisticated" explosives in (or out of, perhaps) Iraq, and how many ways George W. Bush is an idiot, it might as well be about the Latin declensional possibilities of Gosho's name.