h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

hi!

i have decided to form an INNER CIRCLE of friends and to call it the "FREETHINKERS GUILD". anybody is more than welcome to join.
all you have to be is a "freethinker".

a freethinker is "one who forms opinions on the basis of reason independently of authority; especially one who doubts or denies religious dogma." What this means is that to be a freethinker, a person has to be willing to consider any idea and any possibility. The standard for deciding the truth-value of claims is not tradition, dogma, or authorities - instead, it must be reason and logic.

so, if you CONSIDER ANY IDEA AND ANY POSSIBILITY AND YOUR STANDARD FOR DECIDING THE TRUTH-VALUE OF CLAIMS IS REASON AND LOGIC, then WELCOME!

We will not appoint a "leader" because this is not conducive to free thinking. Any hierarchical structure will lead to stifling of ideas and put us at risk of becoming just another 'religion'.

So far, SusY [imagine] and i [?] are members of the Freethinkers Guild.
i know annie and amanda are already freethinkers on h2g2, so i'll just add them into our membership!

PeteY out

RMF Art Vandelay: CEO Duckman Industries, Missing- [Hero], Join DISF at A925391!, Sporkite

has joined the INNER CIRCLE of the FREETHINKERS GUILD.

ps: ya think that name is long enough?

I hereby officially accept my membership to the Freethinkers guild.

I will start to think more freely.

Amanda

AMANDA,

it is my honor to officially welcome you to our inner circle of friends.
you are now officially a FREETHINKER!
gosh, i pushed myself too hard today!

peteY out!

Today is a good day.

www.blackfriarsbakery.co.uk

I am eating a flap jack and that is on the side of the wrapper.

I was wondering what people think of evolution, and our position in it.
We can not surely be the ned of the evolutionary road?
How could we evolve, and what into?
Anything different, or just super human?

Just wondered that's all.

Amanda out.

http://www.blackfriarsbakery.co.uk

Does that work?

I just thought I'd pop by

Your company is always a pleasure.

I THINK that's the finest thing anyone ever said on H2G2

I thank you,



Amanda

AMANDA,

thanks for the flapjak link!
that fat friar dude is funny
and those flapjaks look yummy!
and 23 flavors! holy cow!
there aren't what i was thinking of.
here's what an american flap jack is
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/ruralroot-store/kenflappanmi.html
click on the picture.

and, to answer your evolution question.

ARE WE THE END OF EVOLUTION?

my answer:
1. evolution is driven by some selective pressure on a population of organisms.
2. selective pressure = differential survival advantage among different members of the species.
3. the better equipped to survive, the more likely to survive, therefore the more of them survive to pass on more of their gene copies, thereby taking up more of the gene pool.
4. THE GENE POOL CHANGES. THIS IS EVOLUTION!

CURRENTLY, I DO NOT SEE A SELECTIVE PRESSURE FOR ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR. THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT EVOLVING INTO ANYTHING DIFFERENT.
INTELLIGENCE IS NOT BEING SELECTED FOR. IN FACT, INTELLIGENT PEOPLE AS A WHOLE PROCREATE LESS AND LEAVE FEWER OF THEIR GENE COPIES.

now, if we were to impose some differential survival among humans, then we would evolve into something different than we are now.

there is no real purpose of evolution. it just happens. so there is NO END POINT. we are just the current products of evolution.

whadaya think?

PeteY out

Your flap jacks look like what I would call a Pancake.
How bizarre. We are only the ohter side of the pond and we have such different terms for things.

As the intelligencia are not pooling so many genes do you think that we will evolve into a race of thicko's?
All intelligence will die out and dumb will rule?

What about The X Men. (Patrick Stewart, phwooooah)
They kind of could exist? Mutants?
Not as extremely, but superhumans.
That would be cool.

Amanda out,

AMANDA,

WE CALL 'EM PANCAKES, TOO. but we don't call those cake thingy's flap jaks

you---As the intelligencia are not pooling so many genes do you think that we will evolve into a race of thicko's?
All intelligence will die out and dumb will rule?

me--- INTERESTING THOUGHT. i have wondered about this
i think that thicko genes might be overtaking the gene pool, but smart genes won't be wiped out totally.
the average intelligence of the human race might go down, but the distribution of intelligence will still extend as far on both sides.

in other words, there will always be a small group of smart people around to advance technology!
actually, you will notice that as or technology has advanced, the % of the population who is smart enough to grasp and understand the current technology decreases and keeps getting smaller.
very few people today really understand the cutting edge technology of today.

about the X-MEN. killer movie, huh? can't wait for X-2!
i think that "mutants" or "superhumans" could eventually come about,but only within the restrictions of the laws of physics.
nobody will ever be able shoot out rays from their eyes or do telepathy or telekinesis.
the superhuman of the future COULD have far superior speed, agility, and strength. plus ,intelligence.
but, nothing preposterous like on x-men.

peteY out

I'd disagree with you on evolution in that I believe we are evolving all the time. Everything is.
And that there is a purpose to it, if only as a survival tactic.

Here's a thought about shooting rays from eyes and flying and super stuff
i have a link to a conversation about nanobots, which oddly nobody has written too.
I've just read the new michael crichton book Prey and this opened my eyes to what the future *could* hold.
The US governent has already spent billions on research, we're about 50 years away from the end result (currently)

the first nanobot application could be a spy camera, so small that you'd need a few thousand of them to cover the head of a pin.
They work like a swarm. hidden by their microscopic size until they swarm together to form the camera.
another application would be medical. inject nanobots into the blood stream and you have your camera, more research and you have nanosurgeons, capable of removing a tumour without invasive surgery.

Extrapolate from that and you have an amazing future where microscopic machines can change the human form and abilities.

Nanobots will keep your arteries clean. check your health.
Lift you up out of the pull of gravity. hey nanobots will fire X rays out of your eyes if you want them to

Because of there very micro size they are difficult to manufacture, so they are working on a nanobot that can reproduce itself, using natural things around it. Say you put one in a bucket of sand, a day later you have a bucket full of nanobot and no sand.
this sounds like science fiction and it is today but probably not tomorrow.

naturally the downside of this technology is what would happen if self replicating nanobots got 'out' of the lab and then programmed by us to multiply went ahead and did just that using the earhts natural resources up until they were all gone - including life forms!

here's a link incase you think i'm making this all up
http://www.zyvex.com/nano/

This one might be better.
http://www.foresight.org/EOC/

sory about typos, need to go to bed!

ANNIE--

that IS fascinating.
i'll read the article completely when i have more time.
i can imagine your wonder at the apparent lack of interest in something so incredible.

did you see the star trek episode with those "nannites"? an alien race that was really small? i dunno if they were mechanical or organic.

about nanotechnology. it seems like they could ENCHANCE us. maybe turn us into something like the BORG!

and the self-replicating capability sounds very cool. it sounds very much like what happened millions of yrs ago in the primoridal soup of earths' young oceans...
can you imagine if these mechanical replicators took the course of our early predecessors [those self-replicating organic molecules]?

they could evolve into a myriad of mechanical organisms... countless species like the biological ones that inhabit earth now.
and, they might be able to evolve much faster, given their mechanical vs organic composition.

perhaps, nanobots --> nanobot colonies --> multibot conglomerates acting in unison --> macrobot survival machines --> big robots that are self-aware. THE NEXT STEP IN EVOLUTION?

speaking of evolution, see my next post.

PeteY out.

anNIE
YOU WROTE
I believe we are evolving all the time. Everything is.
And that there is a purpose to it, if only as a survival tactic.

my RESPONSE
the second line: survival is the "purpose". AGREED
the first line: disagree, kind of.
evolution results from some selective pressure.
there MUST be something that leads to DIFFERENTIAL SURVIVAL AMONG THE INDIVIDUAL ORGANISMS OF A SPECIES.
DIFFERENTIAL REPRODUCTION to be exact.
= DIFFERENTIAL GENE COPY PROPAGATION
LEADS TO ALTERATION IN GLOBAL GENE POOL OF HUMANKIND.
THIS LEADS TO EVOLUTION.

now, i ask you. WHAT ARE THE SELECTIVE PRESSURES IN TODAY'S SOCIETY?
what is leading to skewed gene copy propagation?

PeteY out

I am concerned by these nano bots.
I am yet to read the article but the idea scares me lots.
They could escape, they could evolve!
It all sounds too much like an episode of Star Trek I am afraid.
Although if it were to work, would be a major breakthrough in evolutionary terms and everything.

I am gonna go and read the article.

Manda

AMANDA!

that ST episode was the one with the Nannites, right!
i'm not so scared about them evolving. that'd be too cool

hey, this is a loose association, but:

what do you think is the basis for our subjective experience [consciousness]?
of course, you and i think that the living functioning brain is necessary!
but, do you think that *organic* matter is necessary?

i strongly believe that the type of physical substrate is IRrelevant.
what IS important is the PROCESSES going on.
i think that the INFORMATION contained in the functioning brain leads to consciousness, so a mechanical system that could engage in similar information processing would also lead to subjective experience.

AGREED?

PeteY out

ps: Annie, if you read this, i'd to hear your thoughts, too!

I am concerned by these nano bots.
I am yet to read the article but the idea scares me lots.
They could escape, they could evolve!
It all sounds too much like an episode of Star Trek I am afraid.
Although if it were to work, would be a major breakthrough in evolutionary terms and everything.

I am gonna go and read the article.

Manda