h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

A lot of the things Mrs T was blamed for couldn't have been helped, the recession was worldwide

there is no point in continuing this,
if your too.... stuborn to even consider my point,
if you cant see that although things arnt exactly 100% perfect
they are a lot better than they could be

as for antiwrincle cream adverts most of them show young women
if not all of them,
so maybe you would like to complain about something that really is stupid
like the amount of sex they use in advertising
or something like that

you need to remember although its not perfect its going to be a long time till it is, so you may as well stop exadurating and be thankful you have anything at all

Yes.
Things are a lot better than they could be because of... feminism.

Using sex to sell products doesn't bother me, they do it for both genders. And it works. But adverts selling anti-wrinkle cream that tell young and impressionable girls that they are deviant if they don't get plastic surgery because all that's important with them is their looks are much less acceptable.

Feminism means to expect equality. That is all it is.
I am really grateful, you have no idea how grateful I am to the women who fought for me and my generation in the past. It is so much better than it used to be, but if we let it there is every possibility it could go back. And the journey is not finished, not even in England.

As for this comment -
Yeah, but conversely there's one word I need to say about how feminism has damaged millions of lives, caused at least one war and nearly brought about nuclear armageddon....
THATCHER

I really worry about what exactly you're trying to say.... that feminism - that is women being equal to men - is a bad thing?

There was a very interesting Guide Entry about Margaret Sanger A6007501 Pioneer of birth control, now that is REAL feminism

I didnt say it was a bad thing
not once
I would like to be equal to men
but I like having the choice to retire those five years earlyer
I like having the choice to look after my childeren and not be frownd upon for it
I like having the choice to do some of the things that men dont have the choice to do
I like the fact that I'm not expected to work 9 till 5 for the rest of my life and give up due to the horrable monotony

maybe you consider me stupid but though i say I'm not a feminist I dont mean I dont want to be equal to men I was....
just trying to put forward some things that I've come across lately that to me seem wrong

Sigh...

I want kids! Feminism aside, I'm damn broody...I see a toddler in the street and my palms itch...

Can't you combine the two?Motherhood and feminism.Emmeline Pankhurst did it.(And she was for votes for /all/ women,whereas Lydia Beckett and Millicent Fawcett of the NUWSS - Suffragists - were only for middle and upper class.Go WSPU!)

Werekitty,you should be a goddamn politician.Start a new party - and I was going to suggest Feminists of the United Kingdom,but looking at the intials,maybe not...

But seriously,way to go.

Fay - you can borrow my half-brother if you like. I'm meant to be babysitting tonight, you're quite welcome to him

Thankyou Lorelei. I'll take that as a kind of compliment... I think.
(Poly - tics : Poly (many) ticks (blood sucking parasites) )


As I feminist you have the choice to look after your children, but don't deny men that choice.
Retiring five years earlier? It's hardly fair is it. Perhaps what that needs is a masculinist movement....

"I like the fact that I'm not expected to work 9 till 5 for the rest of my life and give up due to the horrable monotony"
I don't know what to say to that. 1) It's a luxury to only have to work nine to five, let alone not even having to do that. 2) So men should? You seem to be relating the fact that you're a woman with being the one who has the opportunity to stay at home. My mum has worked hard her whole life for us. She even supported my father for a few years as a kind of househusband while he worked on his music. If men or women have the chance to give up 9 till 5 then it's up to the individual. It has sweet FA to do with whether you're male or female. That's nothing to do with feminism or womanhood at all. You seem to be quoting ideas that are a few decades out of date.

"I would like to be equal to men"
I'm sorry to quote you... I hate it when people do it to me word for word, but that was quite a long counter argument so I'm working through it comment by comment in this counter-counter argument.
Right. Women being equal to men is feminism. If you would like to be equal to men then you are a feminist. But from your previous comments, you do not actually want to be equal to men. You want all the pros and none of the cons. Being equal to men means taking all the hardships. Without those we will never be equal in the eyes of ourselves or of others.

"but I like having the choice to retire those five years earlyer"
See above, but bear in mind it's not a choice. Women do not get jobseekers at sixty, they get pensions.

"I like having the choice to look after my childeren and not be frownd upon for it"
I don't know who IS frowning on you for it. Send 'em to me and I'll kick 'em around a bit. Because it sure as hell isn't me, and nor is it any kind of feminist principle. Expecting the women to look after the kids is sexist. But an individual deciding to stay at home is just that - an individual decision, and again, irrelenvant to this argument.

"maybe you consider me stupid"
Anthea, you know I love you . And I don't think you're stupid. But I think you need to respect what feminism has done for you, and continues to do for you.

"I was.... just trying to put forward some things that I've come across lately that to me seem wrong"
I understand that, and that is totally fair and valid. Remembering your first point that if possible it would be nice for a parent (I'll say parent and not mother here, assuming you agree the father could equally do it) to stay at home and care for the wee ones.
Certainly in my situation I enjoyed the attention of my mother and loved spending time with her, and it may have worked in my case, and perhaps in yours. But every person is different, every family situation is different. It really isn't for others to judge one generalisation to be better than another.

Very well said

"I would like to be equal to men but I like having the choice to retire those five years earlier. I like having the choice to look after my childeren and not be frowned upon for it. I like having the choice to do some of the things that men don't have the choice to do. I like the fact that I'm not expected to work 9 till 5 for the rest of my life and give up due to the horrible monotony."

I think Anthea raises a very good point here.

One particular respect in which women and men are distinctly unequal is in the female ability to bear children. This unique possibility opens the way to an equally peculiar condition: motherhood.

Six out of seven single parents are mothers. If a marriage breaks down, women are disproportionately (and controversially) more likely to be awarded custody of the children. I was raised by a single mother, and only a month ago, a new single mother was born (forgive me) in our family: my sister. This is not suprising, since most single mothers are from socially disadvantaged backgrounds like my own.

Given the special circumstances attending womanhood, it is only meet that they are afforded special protections and priviledges. This, in my opinion, includes "the choice to retire those five years earlier."

Furthermore, I support Anthea's decision to be a full-time mother—based on ten years of esteeming her among the best, if not *the* best, of my friends; almost six years of knowing her future husband; and my careful scrutiny and occasional, clumsy engineering during the two or three years of their extended "courtship". In fact, for those as lucky as our Anthea, blessed with finding a kind, brave, hard-working, chivalrous man (who, despite his depressive protests to the contrary, is emminently suited to look after and support his future family), and a partnership firmly based on mutual respect of each other's sexual ethics, spirituality, intelligence and emotional maturity—for those so blessed, as I say, I believe she has discovered quite an optimal solution to enjoying (or surviving) the pleasures (and rigors) of parenthood. Yes, there may be other ways to live, alternative divisions of work and labour; but one would be hard pressed to seriously critique Anthea's careful, intelligent and informed decision.

And, given that all parenthood is something of a shot-in-the-dark, I'd consider it dishonest on principle if anyone claimed a prescient knowledge of where Anthea is going to find herself in ten, twenty or thirty years.

Finally, I am quite certain Anthea does not perceive all feminists as "bra-burning" militants; she was merely being facetious. I can personally testify that Anthea is a strong, mature, thoughtful, sensitive individual, who would never stand up to injustice or diminuation on the basis of her gender; several incidents occur to me in which she has reacted to immature, rude and bigotted people with steadfast opposition and scathing wit. I guarantee you, if she thought women were getting a raw deal with the option of early retirement, she would be a voice of firm opposition.

I noticed in another conversation that, while the women displayed mild-to-moderate outrage regarding a perceived slur their femininity, the menfolk grumpily remarked that they saw little to complain about. Perhaps they've spotted the same thing as Anthea—that, actually, an early retirement is generally thought to be a happy possibility, and something of a priviledge. Priviledges are, as a rule, much begrudged unless they are given for good reason; perhaps this five-year grace is, like maternity leave, a concession born from appreciation of the unique ardors which womenhood presents. Far from being an insult, it could be a token of respect and gratitude.

- Jordan

However...

Werekitty, thank you. When I read the conversation, the impression I got was that most of the women were outraged at the implication of weakness or frailty; this was reinforced by the male response, which went along the lines of "stop whining! It's better than what we get!" I'm glad and heartened to see that I was mistaken, and that you are condending with women getting a /better/ deal! :D


"See above, but bear in mind it's not a choice. Women do not get Jobseekers at sixty, they get pensions."

Forgive me if I'm wrong (really, I mean that!), but surely a woman can continue to work (and look for work) after 60? If so, retirement is still optional, like Anthea said. Or do you need to stop looking for work as soon as you accept a pension?

Regardless, there is a material difference between those receiving Jobseekers' Allowance and others claiming a pension: the former have more support in their search for employment. And there will certainly be a monetary difference, although I can't say in which direction. (I expect a pension is better than JSA, though, which might ameliorate the situation somewhat.) If that's what you're arguing against, is it because it works in a woman's favour or disfavour, or simply that it implies differential treatment?

"Women being equal to men is feminism. If you would like to be equal to men then you are a feminist."

I suppose that makes me a feminist, of sorts. But I wouldn't be entirely truthful (not to mention meaningful) if I said that I consider all men and women "equal". (Incidentally: if they were, it would surely eradicate the need for feminism altogether!) I'm all for advocating equality in the vague—but essential—sense of intrinsic worth or value, but not in terms of skills or potential where there are manifest differences between the sexes. And, while some of these should urgently be addressed (those occuring through predjudice or disrespect, such as boys leaving girls to cope alone with their children, or the corporate "glass ceiling"), others simply need acknowledgement and appropriate allowances to be made. Examples of the latter include maternity leave, and (Anthea seems to argue) the possibility of early retirement.

Simply, I see no reason to treat women differently from men insofar as there is no reason to treat them differently. When there is, and there is an honourable solution, I'd favour affirmative action.

- Jordan

By the way, my browser insists on trying to display my endashes as Chinese characters. How annoying! If you want to see them in their full glory (not to mention the first letters of the words following them), everything displays properly using Western (Windows-1252) encoding.

- Jordan

Retirement being five years earlier to women does not seem to have any bearing on parental condition. I do not believe it is a reward for maternity, as it is a generalised sweep of an entire 50% of the population. Firstly it is unfair to men, secondly it means the government considers women unfit to work five years earlier. Apparantly it is going to be changed however, so that's cool.

As to Anthea's decisions, relationships, etc. it's great to hear she's in such a good relationship. But her decision to take time out and care for the kids is not really relevant to this argument. I don't think anyones arguing that being a home-maker (or whatever the PC term is for it at the moment) is an unfeminist thing to do.

I reiterate. In my opinion being treated equally is not the same as being treated identically. Single parents need support whatever their gender. And sure, single mothers make up the greater statistics or single parenthood, but that doesn't mean that the smaller percentage of single fathers shouldn't get support.

Parents need support, and yes, the pregnant and birthing mother needs a great deal of support. But that support has nothing to do with retiring early.



"an early retirement is generally thought to be a happy possibility, and something of a priviledge. Priviledges are, as a rule, much begrudged unless they are given for good reason; perhaps this five-year grace is, like maternity leave, a concession born from appreciation of the unique ardors which womenhood presents. Far from being an insult, it could be a token of respect and gratitude."

Well how about this token of respect and gratitude manifest itself in the form of government funded maternity leave, and good, free childcare and other necessities, rather than a lack of support for the 61 year old woman who wants a job for one reason or another and isn't going to get any support looking for one.


Hi Jordan, by the way.
It's always good to meet new people to argue with

My grandmother is 75
she still works, sure its a volentery job but she is happy to do it
happy to be doing her part
she is a volenter in an inocents charity shop living and supporting her 36 year old son and his drinking habbit,
as well as her own younger brother
and my mother and sister
as well as paying her bills
on a little bit more than state pension
(she gets a militery widdows pension, not much but every little helps)

where as my mother hasnt had a job for the past 14 years and has been struggeling allong on jobseakers allowence

now I have a lot more appreciation for my grandmother than i do for my mother, she held together a happy marriage till my grandfather died of stomouch cancer as well as caring for her family who to be fair shouldnt be relying on mother any more

now you may wonder what this has to do with anything
well,
had my gran been getting JobSeekers - which she has never receved - she would not be able to afford to live, have any of you actually tryed living on £80 something a fortnight its not easy even to suport yourself never mind your family, she would have had to give up her house, her possesions and all those things she cared about,
and when they put the age of retierment up they will probably put up the age for free medical treatment that pensioners get too
and so lots of people wont be able to afford medicines....

and then there is the problem that so many companies dont want to employ the older person... issues like that need to be adressed before you can start complaning about retiering five years earlyer

Why should old men have to suffer that? Are you saying they suffer less?

Also I believe medicine is free on jobseekers.

If you receive a Widows Pension you recieve an excemption certificate, my mum did

That's nice.

I mean nice that they think about you, not nice that she was widowed.

The government do help sometimes