h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Oh, good grief, I just noticed this, from my last post- "uneducation"... What more can I say?

>In the latter case I don't think it is either compassionate or caring to feed someone's insecurities willy-nilly. You would only be helping them to remain a 'victim'.<

It can take a long time to realize this. It's hard not to feel like you're failing someone, or reinforcing their negative beliefs. But it's true, feeding the insecurity only makes it worse. Not to mention that the person you're helping to remain the victim will eventually see you as one of those who is "abusing" or mistreating them, and lash out at you. When you react to the over-reaction, it just reinforces the victim complex even more. It's such a vicious circle.

Personally, I find self-flagellation to be a fairly egocentric and self-absorbed activity. Like a person I used to know who whinged constantly "everyone stares at me, everyone hates me, everyone thinks I'm a freak"... when the truth of the matter is a vast majority of people don't even take notice of other people and could care less. "Everyone is against me" is a pretty self-aggrandizing statement, innit?

I think it's a fairly common 'trait' of very depressed people to seem completely self-absorbed. Sometimes to the point that they start imagining the entire world revolves around their feelings.

I've gone through some rather scary self-obsessed times in my life and I found the thing that helped me the most was to focus on caring for someone or something else.

Cats are good for this because they help put the universe in its proper perspective, with them at the very centre of it.


az

"We don't needuneducation"

Yes, cats are good for this, puppy dogs also; they are utterly self absorbed & joyful; later they do the "oh god you are my leader" stuff, but when babies it's "me! me! me!" Watching skankydawg chase a today & tumble headlong down a grassy slope; i would defy even the most self absorbed, depressed person not to

They are damned hard work, demanding as hell; messy, inconvenient, infuriating; but the difference is you know it isn't always going to be like this; they *will* grow up; unlike some humans it seems. Plus they do funny stuff, which in general the human victim type doesn't, sense of humour is one of the first things to go when a person is depressed.

zdt

Yeah, there is some consolation in knowing that one's pets will grow up eventually. And they do indeed do some of the funniest things!

It's been my observation that people who are self-effacing really aren't at all modest. Carrot seeking... you know, the sort of person who seems to cut his or her self down just to hear other people compliment them and tell them how great they are? Sigh.

Although I believe Terri is correct to some degree that the sense of humor is the first thing to go when someone is depressed, I have found that most people I've known who are clinically depressed or who have a bipolar disorder actually have amazingly wonderful senses of humor and irony and pick up on the most infinitessimal nuances of humor... so why do depressed people lose that capacity so quickly?

*sorry for typing; have bitten finger*

I personaly reckon "depression" is often wrongly diagnosed. i kept getting told i was depressed; which i hotly denied; yet got put on antidepressants which turned me into a zombie, which of course DId depress me!

I think often the person is geuinely pi**ed off with life, often with very good reason & that is different to real clinical depression, which is a true illness which *may* need medication & which the person probably can do nothing about; it's like saying "OY! You with the broken leg! Stop being a lazy shite & get up & run around!'

BUt there are definitely people who take advantage of the labels & possibly seek out, consciously or not, people who will act as "carer" & feed their needs; in the short term; this may be OK for both parties, enable the "down" person space & hugs n stuff to get themselves together; but in the longer term no, it just pulls the other one down; no sense in two people being in the pit really is there?

zdt

Sad but true: As a teenager, I transalated 'We don't need no education' into Esperanto - and I can still remember it!

>>Personally, I find self-flagellation to be a fairly egocentric and self-absorbed activity

Well, maybe. But I speak as an auto-flagellant. In many people - including myself - a significant part of depression is to always think the worst of oneself. The starting assumption is that I've made a mistake, that nobody likes me, that it's all my fault. But I don't do it deliberately: it's ingrained behaviour. I can see how it originated due to certain factors in my early life. Now, in my case, it has led to/ been part of a diagnosed depressive illness. But I'm sure there are people with similar cognitive styles who haven't gone the whole hog and flipped out.

It's a difficult cycle to break out of. In my case, medication helps to mop up the bad chemicals (stricly speaking - it stops the good chemicals from being re-absorbed). But I've also had to learn to recognise and challenge the negative thinking. Why on earth do I feel that nobody likes me? What evidence do I have that something bad is going to happen? etc. etc. This is known as Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. It was something I had to be taught...I couldn't have done it for myself.

>>yet got put on antidepressants which turned me into a zombie, which of course DId depress me!

Was this in the old days? Psychopharmacology has moved on since diazepam etc.

>But I've also had to learn to recognise and challenge the negative thinking. Why on earth do I feel that nobody likes me? What evidence do I have that something bad is going to happen?<

These negative thoughts of yours are automatic and unconscious, though. It happens to me sometimes, but I guess in my case it's due to emotional upbringing, and it's something I can counter and/or control without the help of medication. Honestly *thinking* the worst of one's self would be terrible.

*Saying* the worst about one's self, in order to fish for compiments and ego-stroking, and doing it consciously, isn't that kind of the same thing as threatening self-harm and/or suicide, in order to guilt-trip and manipulate people? This is what a former friend of mine (Terri knew him, too) used to do. (Sadly, most of the bad things he said about himself were true. Ironic? Or just slick?)

>As a teenager, I transalated 'We don't need no education' into Esperanto - and I can still remember it!<

Now that's just genius!

<> (pc)

Oh, I still get those feelings sometimes, like when I have a new group of students to teach. I go in feeling convinced they aren't going to like me, and sometimes this feeling lasts even after they have shown that they think I'm just fine.

Again, it's a form of self-obsessing and thinking that others are actually terribly interested in you to the extent of 'making your worst nightmares come true'. Most people just see me as an English teacher - they aren't making personal judgements about me. But sometimes if I am feeling a bit low I can get a bit paranoid about this.


az

'Ni ne besonas ne kerzon, ni ne besonas ne penson kontrolon...'

Yes, I take the point...some people *do* like to moan about how sad they are. In my experience (not just with myself, but with others), truly depressed people tend to keep their negativity to themselves...and therein lies the problem.

On the other hand...the emotionally needy, high-maintenance people must have something in their thought patterns that gives them the need to constantly seek approval. Sure, it's annoying of them, but they're probably damaged people all the same. You'd be happier if they weren't so needy...and so would they.

>>Again, it's a form of self-obsessing

Ah, there you go, Az, feeling guilty about the fact that you're self obsessed. How very self obsessed of you!

We can't really help it, can we? We've only ourselves to measure the world by.

No, I wouldn't say I felt guilty about that when it happens, Edward, more that I realise it's almost always inappropriate with regards to the actual *reality* of the situation.

As I said before, what tends to work for me when I get in that self-obsessed space is to make myself care about someone or something else. It's a type of distraction therapy and I find it works wonders for me.

Yes, we are all self-interested (and so often measure the world by our own feelings and beliefs) but I think that is quite a different thing from getting self-obsessed, because then one loses perspective and starts seeing 'scary monsters' where they actually don't exist.


az

Right, just to prove it all goes pear shaped; my emotional resilience right now is somewhere on the minus side of zero; but i know exactly why:

1) Can't walk more than about 10yards 'cos have buggered my knee up. Am in pretty constant pain, can't find a comfortable position even to sleep so am grossly overtired; difficult to do just about anything; can't bend down,stand for long.

2) Getting bugger all practical support from friends, other than Patrick N,who isn't available often, he works damned hard & also takes care of grandson. The rest are busy/tired/find it a hassle/fed up of being asked/will USE it as emotional blackmail or simply just aren't around.

3) So, in practical terms, getting essential medication & food is damn near impossible. So obviously; i cut down. So this means i am ratty & stressed out. So, if anybody *does* appear i am a pretty unpleasant person to be around, so obviously they don't stick around longer than they have to. Vicious circle.

4) I am feeling horribly guilty 'cos i am not able to give the poor puppy the exercise he needs. Yes, i know, "handicapped people shouldn't have pets, or even things like plants, which are a hassle, in fact they should de-clutter their lives & sit quietly in a nice bare white room" I didn't actually know i was going to screw my knee up; this could happen to anyone.The underlying handicap is a hassle but not (yet!!) totally disabling.

5) The fact of trying to INSIST to people that NO, I REALLY can NOT walk to the shops or Doctor; i am NOT trying it on, I DON'T want bloody sympathy, merely a lift in their car or for them to walk & get a few basics for me is starting to infuriate me. For god's sake, if i wanted pity there are a million better ways to try & get it than deliberately hurting your knee; gawd, self harm is a luxury when it happens all by itself!!!

6) And having a supposed boyfriend who is absolutely useless support wise & thinks only of himself & what HE can take from ME is a total pain, even more of a pain is that right now in this state i dare not tell him to sod off 'cos i may need to wheedle him into transporting me places or shifting things. That's reality & it's not nice.

So, my emotional resilience is at rock bottom; but i could be drip fed antidepressants it wouldn't help; all that would sort me out is practical help with mobility. Given that, my mood would change dramatically, without that, it is spiralling down into the pit known as Depression.

I think this is why i am not a total believer in letting people just "go under" if they whinge (like i just did; & am doing in RL) because maybe there are practical things people can do to break that cycle of despair. If the person tries to help themselves, usually it involves getting other people to help too; i have left phone messages for lots of folks today, but i am sure they all think "oh gawd, here's bloody terri, she wants something, probably a lift; ignore it!"

And now i am actually starting to resent them; remembering all the times i cooked for them, helped them with stuff; hmmm...we shouldn't see it as "payback time" but it's difficult not to.

And it definitely influences the way i feel about them.

So, that may balance things out a little, or at least give food for thought. HEY if you are off to the shops to get food for thought, while you're at it, i have a teeny weeny little shopping list here....

zdt

I think the main problem, Terri, is when people 'cry wolf' once too often and wear their friends down. Not saying at all that this is your case, but then again, everyone has their specific 'cut off' point for wanting to help.

After I had my op a few years ago I received a lovely Christmas hamper from my bank students, other people helped me with shopping, one person (a student) came over one morning to take me for a short walk and carry my fruit and veg home (as I wasn't supposed to carry stuff).

I think it's quite okay to whinge when things get bad - I do it too.

It's just that some people whinge all the time, when they just want some extra attention or whatever. And it's these people who tend to wear out the generosity of their friends.

Yeah, I know what you mean about 'payback', even if you don't like to see it in that term. That if you have been generous with others and then they can't help you in a time of need this leaves you feeling quite bad. But try not to resent them, maybe for whatever reason they don't have the wherewithall to give to someone else right now - you never know.

Re: the supposed boyfriend. Well, you already know what I think of him. Waste of skin.

I don't know what to say about your obvious lack of a 'support network' where you live. It's something I've always had here so maybe I've just been really lucky. In any case, I hope your knee gets better soon - something like that can really bring you down.


az

>It's just that some people whinge all the time, when they just want some extra attention or whatever. And it's these people who tend to wear out the generosity of their friends.<

I've known Terri for three and a half years- she's one of the first friends I made on hootoo. I've never known her to whinge just to *get attention*. In fact, because I do kind of understand the nature of her underlying medical problem, I think Terri doesn't whinge *enough*. She gives and gives and gives, and a helluva lot of those people she gives of her time and energy to, give her nothing in return but grief. Personally, I think Terri needs to be a little less generous and a little more demanding. I do what I can, but I'm too far off geographically to be of much practical help.

>Re: the supposed boyfriend. Well, you already know what I think of him. Waste of skin.<

Dunno if I think he is a waste of skin, but I do think he is a waste of effort. This is where Terri and I differ, I think. I don't think it's a weakness on her part, or a hardness on my part... but my threshold for being taken advantage of is a lot narrower than Terri's.

It seems you misread my post, psychocandy. I was talking in general about people who whinge in a 'cry wolf' manner, I wasn't referring to Terri and even said so.

Hope you didn't also misread that Terri.


az

Oh, no, Az, I understood, and was actually confirming, what you'd said! Obviously not very clearly, though! for any misunderstanding!! To both of you, Az and terri!

Don't worry m'dears, i understood totally & for being so understanding of me. Damn shame we can't do a "beam me up scotty" trick & get "you lot round here right now, we could have a great time, i will sort food out sitting down after "you lot" have bought it & everyone except me can dance smiley congas up & down the street to full blast skanky musicPC, which will exercise thenicely!

Yoda meanwhile can stare snootily out of the window doing equivalent of "Oh for heaven's sake..."

Hmm; waste of skin....dunno, there must be loads of people needing grafts & it's actually quite nice skin; bit moley in places though. The hair is verythough; i am told you can get quite a bit for 18" long blond wavy stuff...anyway, if it ever pitches up again, it had better watch its a*se & start reading about samson & Delilah....

I was just remarking to Lil on MSN that if we wanted to inflict personal pugatory, we should transport viking onto a desert island with a certain other...nope, nope, not on here *resists & carries on *



zdt

Terri, I really wish I could help you in some practical way! (And I REALLY, REALLY mean that. I like helping people who deserve it.)

I haven't known you as long as PC, but for the time I have known you I have glimpsed all of the qualities she mentioned Your one tough cookie and you truly deserve better than it seems you're getting

Hope you have lots of , and s... and if not please except the previous virtual ones

Oh good! Glad there weren't any serious misunderstandings going on, other than (temporarily) on my part.

I think that *I* get a bit paranoid sometimes on hootoo, especially when some researchers misread something I've posted (on purpose or otherwise) and then I find out about it second hand later on when reading elsewhere what a b*tch I am.

Ah well, can't please all of the people all of the time . . .

Anyhow, Terri, you do know that I help out when I can and although I can't do anything practical now my best wishes are with you that you feel better soon and can start getting out and about. As I say, I know what it's like to be in that situation.

Also glad you took my 'waste of skin' comment properly (with humour) as we've talked about this on IM and I think we understand each other.

You mentioned Yoda and Skankypup but not Moon - is Moon no longer around?


az

>I think that *I* get a bit paranoid sometimes on hootoo, especially when some researchers misread something I've posted (on purpose or otherwise) and then I find out about it second hand later on when reading elsewhere what a b*tch I am.<

You and me both!

Moon was adopted out some time ago, but I don't think it was because Terri couldn't keep her out of the toilet. I think it was because she liked to eat electrical wires?