h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

hi mad meg,

I think it could be very possible that your mother also suffers from depression, either a result of her unhappy childhood or maybe it was/is a chronic sort of depression.

Thing is, none of us who are friends or family with such people are qualified to deal with them properly, in a manner that would actually help them. Too much emotional baggage going on. And we run the risk of falling prey to their 'victim' cr@p.

Both of my parents were alcoholic and abusive. And I really got into feeling like a 'victim' when I was a teenager. Mind you, I think that is quite normal - most teenagers feel quite sorry for themselves and look for others to blame for how they feel.

Like psychocandy, I left home very young (I was just 15) and I started to find my own way in the world. And I realised pretty fast that not only was the world not about to 'pity' me but that I also didn't want to be a 'pitiful' person. So I had to grow up pretty fast and just start taking care of myself.

This left me with little patience for those who showed no inclination to want to take care of themselves, take responsibility for themselves - those who kept wanting to blame others for their sorry state.

Including my own mother. I didn't even speak to her for ten years. Later on, when I felt able to do this, I got in touch again but gave her very rigid 'guidelines' that she had to agree to (she is one who loves being a victim) and told her I'd accept none of that nonsense, but if she wanted to start relating to me as a responsible adult then I was quite happy with that. And to her credit, she finally came round and now we have a very pleasant relationship.

Meanwhile, I learned how to feel genuine compassion and empathy for others and, I think, can now see the clear difference between those who deserved that compassion and those who were simply trying to make me feel sorry for them.

As I think I posted earlier here, I think pitying someone is so insulting, for both people involved.

I guess because I was out there *in the world* trying to make something for/of myself at age 15 I find it hard to feel sorry for anybody. And I think that is the best compliment I could ever give anyone - that I don't feel sorry for them, but if they ever need a bit of help then I will do what I can.

And yeah, I've sometimes fallen prey to those who just suck the very life out of you, but I think my basic 'survival instinct' is too strong to ever let them do too much damage.

The very best thing we can do is live our lives the best we can and hopefully set an example to others who have also got through difficult times.


az

<> (pc)

Absolutely. I think it's called 'growing up'?


az

>Meanwhile, I learned how to feel genuine compassion and empathy for others and, I think, can now see the clear difference between those who deserved that compassion and those who were simply trying to make me feel sorry for them.<

Me too. Unfortunately, some people seem to prefer pity over compassion. Maybe they just confuse the two. I dunno.

That's why I had to quit the support groups I was in. And K noticed it at his old ACOA meetings, too- some people almost become addicted to playing the victim.

I lived for a couple of years with someone who threatened constantly to cut/hurt/kill himself if I didn't . And for a while, I actually let myself feel guilty about that, as if *I* were somehow responsible for the man's misery. I did everything I could to help... and it was never enough. And when I finally had to leave... it hardly proved fatal.

I think compassion is tempered with common sense, pity is indiscriminate.

I think some people prefer pity, psychocandy, but frankly, I have no time for these people.

Call me a cold-hearted b*tch (if you dare! ) but in fact I spend lots and lots of time with people who are honestly trying to get over and through stuff, and I do know how hard that is. I never think this time spent is wasted because I see how hard these people are working to get out of their particular 'bad space'. And often these same people help me when I get stuck in a bad place.

Heck, we are all trying to make our lives better, to do things that would be good for us and for the people we are with - and yeah, sometimes we need a bit of help with that. No problem.

But if I ever started telling you I was just a victim of my past and just couldn't stop behaving and reacting the way I do I would truly appreciate a HUGE smack about the head to bring me to my senses.


az

The worst of human emotions: pity and guilt

The emotions thst are most expected of people: pity and guilt

Blech!

"At the heart of resilience is a belief in oneself -- yet also a belief in something larger than oneself."

a link: http://articles.health.msn.com/id/100108060?GT1=7003
I liked and believe the article.
I could not help but leave a quote!

I am a big believer in balance and that it can be learned.
Some balance is in the brain so some can use some phrmacuetical help.
I believe we come to life with our own package of good and bad stuff before the environment even challenges us.

The so called good and bad are often the same traits out of balance.
Like everything else it is a combination of things but resilience is a great trait to shoot for. Unfortunately and fortunately that takes testing ,painful practicing ,to have a chance to learn know for sure.

There will always be people more comfortable with being a victim and I also have met some people more comfortable staying that way. They are not always the loudest complainers either.

Just because a person has times where they feel they are out of hope an options does not mean it cannot change. People do go through phases as adults. Many people suffer from things they have brought on and some from things put onto them. In the end , either way , all have to find a balance and deal.

I think one aspect is similar to our own immune system.
We can actually be healthier and less sensitive to allergies and disease when exposed to dirt,germs and pollen et at an early age of life.

"At the heart of resilience is a belief in oneself -- yet also a belief in something larger than oneself."

Eek! The last part is an instant turn-off to we Atheist Fundamentalists. I'm wondering if there's another way of putting it? Like, AA talk about a 'Higher Power' while Al-Anon don't.

Getting back...there's a peculiar borderline between personality problems and mental illness. Commonly, mental illnesses follow a history of stress and can be triggered by a sudden trauma. But even without a full-blown, diagnosable mental illness, life experience can cause some people to become habituated to various ways of thinking. e.g. the 'victim mentality'. Should we maybe not look at such personality problems as similar to illness? i.e. people don't necessarily 'choose' to be victims? And it's not always easy them to break the mould?

Accepting fully, though that such people can be a pain in the a**e. It can be frustrating when you know that people are stuck in behavioural patterns which you just *know* aren't making them (or anyone else) happy.

*tiptoes in*

I can only really speak from my own experience. OK, i had all manner of s**t for much of my life & yes, it has affected me, of course it has; a wonderful childhood affects you just as much as a bad one & that too could be eventually a negative thing in adulthood, if you expect everything on a plate. "Where's my mummy?" syndrome is quite common!

I *was* a victim; i'm not one now; but in my particular case; i think the weirdest aspect is that it seems to have left me with a need to "adopt" stray needy humans, animals, even bloody plants; i try & nurture them back to health & end up sacrificing my own energy in the process. I realise exactly what i am doing but....I think if you have been through the crap, you maybe can become a magnet for others who are still going through it & yes, you may get used.

But personally i would rather get used (NOT abused, big difference!)& stay caring & compassionate than bitter & cynical. I think the fact i tend to "over-give" when other people give up on folks as hopeless cases is probably bad for me personally but good in general; usually these people are desperately crying for someone to care for them & the more rejections they get, the more desperate they become, so the more needy they appear, so the more rejections they get: etc, etc, etc. If someone is at rock bottom emotionally, only when someone shows "hey, you're a heap of sh**e right now, but i believe you haven't always been like that & won't be in the future; come on, give me your hand!" can they start climbing out of that pit.

zdt

<<But personally i would rather get used (NOT abused, big difference!)& stay caring & compassionate than bitter & cynical.>>

I prefer staying caring & campassionate *and* not being used. Allowing oneself to be used does not necessarily mean one is being compassionate or caring, nor does being compassionate mean that one has to constantly give of oneself (to anyone and everyone).

In any case, I don't think the issue is about people who get into tough situations and need a hand - the problem is with people who would rather be victims and pitied than be helped and become responsible for themselves.


az

>Allowing oneself to be used does not necessarily mean one is being compassionate or caring, nor does being compassionate mean that one has to constantly give of oneself (to anyone and everyone).<

Especially when you have given and given of yourself, to someone who takes and takes and offers little (or nothing) in return. Eventually, you are drained. Even giving constantly to anonymous recipients needs to be tempered with a bit of looking out for number one.

>In any case, I don't think the issue is about people who get into tough situations and need a hand - the problem is with people who would rather be victims and pitied than be helped and become responsible for themselves.<

That's where I was coming from, and it's what the article is about. Hell, I've been in more tough situations than I can count, and I've sometimes had help getting out, even if just moral support. But I don't think having hit rough times entitles me to a free ride now, at anyone else's expense. When I find myself in deep doo-doo, I assess the situation, admit that I need assistance, get whatever help I can and get my sh*t together. And then life goes on. Quite nicely, as a matter of fact!

When it gets to the point where helping or caring for someone else becomes too great a burden or too great a liability for me to bear (e.g., the former acquaintance who kept borrowing more and more and more money, and then being nasty toward me when I couldn't afford to spend any more), then my own best interest needs to come first.

That said, just because I cannot overextend myself doesn't mean I'm not happy to share what I can. That's a helluva lot of fun!

Ed said;
= quote from the original PC link.
"At the heart of resilience is a belief in oneself -- yet also a belief in something larger than oneself."
Eek! The last part is an instant turn-off to we Atheist Fundamentalists. "

Gosh Ed EEk back at you
There can be many things larger than oneself and not on a religious track.

Concepts larger than oneself exist in many peoples world views. Top ones are work or volunteer activivties. Work or helping in neighborhoods,politics,science,charity,helping ,nature,art,enviornment,health on and on...

Life is short but it's mighty wide.
Resilience relies on your personal modes of operation and adaptations to change.
Choices abound!

I meant to add family and extended family to my above list

Agreed...but it's the 'believe in it bit'. If I believe in something bigger than me...say, a tree...will that make things OK? Psychobabble...or deep insight?

Let's put it another way...does 'believe in society' mean 'leave it to someone else to sort out'?

(ignore me, by the way. Sometimes I lapse into facetiousness)

Hi again!

What about an entire continent of people? Does Africa need the help of others or is it merely a drain on their resources - a giant bottomless pit?

I'm not sure what you mean, Willem. I mean, they're obviously in desperate need of financial healp, food, good medical care, etc. And feeling the need for those things isn't quite the same as being actually fairly well off and moping around whinging to all and any that "the world owes me a big fat ass kissing because my daddy/mommy was mean to me".

I don't think the two situations really compare, do they?

Hi Psychocandy! I have a habit of thinking on various different levels and trying to see analogies. The situations may not be completely similar, but there are some similarities. Much of what has been said in this forum resonates for me with what people over here have been saying. There are accusations that there is a culture of 'victimhood' here, people who are not facing the responsibility for taking care of themselves. In this case it is 'the world owes us big because of the injustices of the past - colonialism, slavery and Apartheid'. Some people in response will simply say 'it's the past; get over it'. Some people will help but after a while feel as if money/effort/caring is simply being poured down a vast black hole. This is similar to trying to 'help' a person who's committed to being and remaining a victim. But personally I think - one *has* to help. The right way of helping and the right attitude of helpfulness is the struggle. I really think it can help to think of the problem on the level of individuals as well as larger groups of people.

I dunno; all i try and do is be as good as i can, whilst not hopefully letting it screw me up too much. There has to be a balance, there has to be karma type stuff, which isn't religion, it isn't anything except "do as you would be done by" in my book.

Quite often this neat little philosophy gets totally messed up by people who have massive needs that i just simply cannot cope with; i may continue to love the person but just can't give them any more, which breaks me up; what can you do? If you carry on giving at this level, you will deplete your own emotional resources; yet you recognise the person is dependent on you at this moment & if you "let them down" they may go under.

I am quite a needy little nasty person myself too. I try to spread the load a bit, so i whinge to one person, whine to another , bleat loudly at another, scream at another....try to be aware where the other person is at, also try to think what their problems are & plug into the bits we have in common; maybe by talking we can help each other. It doesn't always work and i may come across as whingy or whatever, but i know i have true friends & they know i am also; i think that's the main thing; it's an exchange & if a friendship ends; it doesn't mean either of the parties is evil, merely that the relationship ended; show me a perfect person & i will just laugh quietly, they don't exist, that is the beuty of love, you get involved with some one & say "My beloved, you are far from perfect in the eyes of the world, but you are simply lovely as you are to me; shut up; relax & let's have a "

*sigh*

zdt

Hi, Terri. You know I can sympathize. I've had to let go of a few friends over the years, because I just can't give endlessly of myself, getting nothing in return but grief when I don't give enough, without wearing down eventually. Hang in there.

Willem, I still think there's a considerable difference between people who are victims of circumstance, people who are kept poor or uneducation or segregated or disenfranchised by a system which sucks, and people who blame their situation *now* on events which happened ages ago. The person with the victim complex who claims they can't finish school/hold down a job/treat other people with anything resembling kindness or respect because of past experiences which have not left them physically disabled or seriously brain damaged. Asking for help is quite different from expecting to get one's ass kissed.

But, I do think that people in general need to try to help. If that help is refused, or if someone in need of help demands that they get help on their terms only, then who is really to blame, ultimately?

I agree with you psychocandy that there is often a huge difference between what people need and what they want.

Helping someone out during a time of need is quite different from constantly helping someone who never stops wanting (and usually wanting more, the more you give).

In the latter case I don't think it is either compassionate or caring to feed someone's insecurities willy-nilly. You would only be helping them to remain a 'victim'.


az