h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I think you might be onto something Stone Aart. It does seem to me that delusions can involve dream-like states intruding into waking life. The kind of imagery of delusion is of that vague-like nature that dreams often are, if I think of myself. You think you are thinking clearly ... later you think back about what you were thinking and you realize you were thinking in a more vague way, in a disconnected sort of way but you felt as if you were thinking clearly.

I still think science needs to investigate this thing more ... I'll try and do some more reading up on schizophrenia and delusions.

The problem being: with normal people there's sleeping and there's waking. If you're right then with a delusional person there's sleeping, then sleeping-a-little-while-waking ... then 'sleeping-a-little-less-but-still-not-being-totally-awake ...when do you know if, at last, you are *fully* awake?

There are also states of experience that seem to go way beyond the normal, waking consciousness ... these cannot clearly be called delusions ... but I might talk about that later because that is very complicated and I'd like to speak of simpler aspects first.

But yes ... to me it seems that my imagination can overlap a *lot* with my perception and have done so since childhood and in a variety of ways ... and again, the problem is that I need to know how much attention I should pay to a certain thing, how much importance I should attach to it, how I should evaluate it.

Just back to something earlier. I am really, really fearful of unintentionally insulting people, offending them or pushing them away. I am afraid I might have said something that offended Christians reading here in my posting a few posts back. I do not wish to give the idea I am against Christianity. I have criticisms of some of the things I see some Christians do and say ... and I can try and justify those ... in the course of which people might still feel offended or offended even worse, or not ... but in the course of doing that I might end up offending non-Christians which I also don't want to do. This to me seems a real Catch-22 situation. I am desperate for finding people whom I can speak with and interact with in a friendly manner, I don't want to offend anyone but when it comes to the point where I will offend someone no matter what I say, it puts extreme stress on me. Some people can shrug it off and say, you can't win them all, you will inevitably end up having to choose some and reject others ... for me it is extremely painful because in truth I really have goodwill towards everybody and it hurts me if I am misunderstood.

TAKING STOCK

All right at this point: I am now feeling much better and thank you to everyone involved. But more importantly ...

Do you think this discussion is achieving what the counsellor said yesterday - is this enlightening and informative about mental health issues?

I think it has been informative,and that is an aspect of sharing your experiences is worthwhile

how about the other aspects? has it helped you to write them out,to have heard about other peoples experiences or their take on things?

This fear or sense of worry that you might in some way be perceived as offending / insulting someone else or might be misunderstood is I think a common trait amongst humans ... and must come from the "fact" that humans are social organisms. An individual who has absolutely no thought or worry that their actions and words might cause offence or insult is a sociopath. Someone who pays too much thought about causing offence or insult is likely to be neurotic and self-isolate themselves.

I think there are two factors that are needed in helping to overcome an exaggerated sense of causing offence / insulting someone else. One is a trust and faith in oneself. That you yourself act in best faith and sincerely according to your own senses and thoughts at that moment in time. That if the moment is repeated and only knowing what you knew then (and not what you might learn later) you would do the same thing because at that time it seemed the best thing to do.

The other thing is an acceptance of the independence of mind and thought of others. It's like what parents have to do when they have children. At some point they have to let go of their children and accept that the children have developed into adults and have the right to hold their own mind and thoughts and be able to make their own mistakes in the world. Mistakes provide opportunities for learning and the development of mind and conscious awareness.

Ultimately it is up to the other person whether or not they want to take offence or want to be insulted. Sometimes they have to "misunderstand" your comment in order to take offence or be insulted. I have learnt that some people are incredibly easy to offend while others are almost impossible to offend ... and they will always think kindly of you. Of course people will occupy intermediate positions within that range of being offended every time and never being offended. For example a person who may never be offended might be a mother to their child, or maybe a priest to their parishioners.

Similarly if you make a suggestion and that other person acts on that suggestion ... then your responsibility actually stops at the making a suggestion stage. It is ultimately the choice of that other person to accept or decline that suggestion. All you are doing is providing possibilities for that other person to consider. You have to accept that the other person is free to take up that suggestion or not and it is their own thoughts that determine whether your suggestion is best for them and might work for them. What they do after acting upon your suggestion is entirely their own responsibility ... all you have done is given them another possibility to consider.

I'm thinking about this person you described, who changed very much. He seems very strange! But remember, you are not responsble for his views, even when you shared something in good faith that turned not so good. His choices, not yours.
And as above, (Stone Aart?) we are all afraid to hurt people, well most of us, but as long as one doesn't intentionally try to hurt someone, no one will be angry for long. One tries to be a good person, sometimes it doesn't work out as one hoped. And then forgiving oneself is very important. It's really hard to predict and control other people's reactions, so you do your best, and then it's in the other persons hands.

Of course I don't expect you to move to Sweden, Willem - I was just realising that my experiences must be totally different from yours. Although we are about the same age, our environments have been worlds apart. I would miss so much about Sweden if I were to leave permanently, the same as anyone leaving their home.

I think this conversation is very valuable. I learn all the time when I read it. I also recognise many of your feelings, I suppose the difference might be that I don't let them go too far. For whatever reason that may be. We are not that different.

Hey, Milla, that's a good thought - about backgrounds, I mean.

I was just thinking that. When I talk to the Prof - he and I are close to the same age - and he tells me about things that happened when he was a kid in Yorkshire, I sometimes think how different his town was from where I lived at the same time.

Of course, the kids I went to high school with didn't believe my stories about my relatives who lived in the country. They thought I was making them up...

One of the reasons I beg people to write their stories for the Post is that I think it helps us bridge our understandings by knowing what kinds of experiences other people have had.

I have only just been made aware of this conversation
and am quite distressed to hear of Willem's malaise.

Does he not yet know how much I value his art?
Hmmph!

Or the high hopes and certainty I have for his success
if he is given an opportunity to publish widely.


Why are so many artists so pessimistic and self destructive?
I suspect diet. The brain is an electro-chemical reaction to
what we eat and drink and inhale and inject...

I have also lately been told it is a myth. In fact, someone has
just about proven that Van Gogh didn't cut off his own ear
or commit suicide. He was the victim of assaults in both.


~jwf~

Willem, thank you for replying to my comments. I hope you were not offended by anything I said. You have explained so succinctly about your condition and how you feel, and I understand now that you cannot trust anything or anyone you might wish to regard as a yardstick.

Most of us would have difficulty trusting our own judgement, and even when we do we are not always right.

Because we are all from such very different countries it helps also. I wonder do you have the support systems in place for people such as yourself? We have them here, though they are not infallible, and the understanding of mental illness is getting much better.

The fact that you do know when you are delusional is a very significant factor, and all to the good, but I can see why you worry so much about what you might do, in that state.

I would also back up Milla's comments about medication.

As for policemen, they are human beings, hopefully doing the best they can and trying to understand an illness they know nothing about, which you know, can be scary.

I think you should not have given away your painting. I feel he took advantage of your good nature. A decent person would have offered to pay you, even if it was less than you felt it was worth.

Is there anyone anywhere who could value your work independently and maybe act as an agent? Very few brilliantly talented people, such as you, are able to put a price on their own work.

I hope writing about your condition helps you a little. It certainly helps us understand not just you, but the many other people who have the same problems.

Websailor

All right thanks again for the input. I feel better but I'm not safe yet because I still need to know how to live and I still have to work to try and keep this stuff from recurring. Now that I'm more stable I think I know what precipitated this incident - but that later, now to answer some things:

Stone Aart and Milla, I just had word from someone else involved with the guy interested in the occultish music and I think it's not as bad as I thought, they're just enjoying the music and not letting it get to their heads - it seems, and I hope. My paranoia was making me worry they would get into weird dark rituals and stuff ... me, I listen to music that others might think very evil but to me, too, it's just music with a dark theme like for instance horror movies or 'Guernica' by Picasso - just because it deals with something negative doesn't make it evil - but I know some people can take it too seriously.

I am still very wary of giving offense. Just a note - I do not TAKE offense, pretty much not at all since I can understand almost any viewpoint, having had such weird and diverse viewpoints myself. I do have my own ideas of right and wrong and I do sometimes think people are wrong but I'll always discuss it with them with respect and patience and if in the end they disagree with me, still fine.

But as for giving people offense: I do try my utmost not to and it is still hard for me when someone takes offense ... if it seems the person misinterpreted me, then maybe I should have tried harder to make myself clear.

In some situations I DO keep quiet. Such as in my art class: I KNOW for a fact if I speak up there, people will take offense and it will sour my relationship with them - and I need the art classes very very desperately, despite the problems it's still my one link with outside society.

But over here I speak out- even though I know there are Christians here and atheists too who are friendss of mine I figure since they know people with a variety of views and are friendly with such people themselves, they should be openminded - but I still worry that a criticism I have might come across as too harsh.

Dmitri - would you be interested in writing about what it was like to grow up on Apartheid South Africa? We were humans although we made mistakes - some people today would think 'humanising' Afrikaners means condoning evil - while I say it will make people realise just how easy it can be to do evil while not necessarily being evil yourself - just a matter of incorrectly interpreting the effects and implications of your beliefs. It can and does happen all over the world, still. The thing about good intentions paving the road to hell.

JWF I never felt unappreciated ... I simply was wondering whether the appreciation I got was enough to balance out the anguish and suffering. I'm still not sure if it does. There are people who appreciate me but I wonder if they're enough ... I really, really want to reach a lot more people than I am actually reaching at the mo.

About artists and self-destruction: I don't drink or use any drugs, but my schizophrenia was in part precipitatyed by a spree of heavy drinking while I was at university. I quit cold turkey after that. But I know that many very creative people tend to drink or use mind altering drugs, and based on a lot of other people I've had dealings with I think this can be a serious problem we should be looking at more.

Anyways I don't indulge in any such things and haven't in over twenty years but strangely the episode seems to have involved me 'taking' something I don't usually take - a dietary factor for sure but more on that later.

That story about Van Gogh *not* having committed suicide right now is quite conjectural ...

Websailor: like I explain above, I don't take offense. I will try and explain as clearly as I can but that only means I want to try and make sure people understand because this is something not many people understand - not many people in my situation is able to talk about it. Anyways, I don't always know I'm delusional - like I say here, I suspected I was delusional yesterday - at the worst point however I *didn't* ... as I slowly stabilized again understanding started to dawn and I think I now understand even better what happened. But the most potent delusions I experience are in states in which I *do not know* that I am delusional ... and sometimes I know I am delusional but not about what, or just how badly.

There is no support systems here. I could go to a psychiatrist for which I'll have to pay - but I have a medical fund, which will not necessarily pay for everything so I might have to pay a good deal of money myself - and I have financial difficulties (but I need to speak about that also because I am starting to wonder if I am not also paranoid and unrealistic concerning that).

I do my best to take my medication consistently ... but I do notice small changes in my circumstances can lead to big changes in my mental state and then suddenly the medication cannot compensate any more. So I seem to have a great need of keeping my circumstances very stable and predictable. I am trying to stick to a very rigorous daily regimen of activities ... but in a way this is inhuman and very difficult to keep to perfection. Will discuss later I hope ...

Just an example of the 'no support systems'. The lifeline folks I phoned are the closest I could find - they are in DURBAN. About a thousand kilometres away. The police didn't even mention anything remotely close to someone to whom I could go for counselling after the suicide attempt ... they themselves had to evaluate me and decide whether it was safe to let me go back to my house.

As for the cop who took my painting ... I thought there was something funny. He first asked for a painting. Then I asked if he would be willing to pay me. Then he said, to paraphrase, 'when you give someone a gift, you don't ask for something in return, then it's not a gift'. I wondered: but is it right then, to suggest to someone that they give you something as a gift? The idea I have is that a gift is offered freely ... not, for instance, going up to someone and saying, 'would you give me that as a gift?' So - I do think I was taken advantage of, not just because of my goodwill but also because I was in a precarious situation and the police were in a position of power and authority. So if I had someone with me then who could have said, 'no this is not right' it would have helped ... the police said a bunch of other things too about which I would have liked to get the opinion of someone else. For instance suggesting a cop live with me in the house and pay a rent of something like $50 a month. I don't know if that is a reasonable rent but it sounds pretty low and also I remember this was mentioned after the cops who came to get me described how big and nice the house was in which I was living alone. So I'm wondering if they're not trying to take advantage of me and my situation but then I wonder if I'm not being paranoid again.

As for agents ... I think what I really need is a *literary* agent. I think my only chance to really get a meaningful income is if I can publish books featuring my art and writing. I have tried reading about getting in touch with publishers but I am very intimidated with the ridiculous number of 'hoops' it seems necessary to jump through and all the things that seem to have nothing to do with just getting the stuff out there in printed and e-book form and bringing it to people so they could see and read. I'm reading a book (more on it later) about the publishing industry in the old South Africa (which my father also made use of, and I've read his letters) and back then the publishing industry went to great lengths to find authors and to publish their works even against state intervention and censorship - I wish it was like that now, that I could get a publisher that would just look at my work and if it has merit, publish it.

Willem - about the writing for the Post - yes, yes, yes. I do think that the more we describe our own experiences, the better off we all are.

And folks, please don't think because this isn't some high-profile commercial outfit that you aren't reaching an audience. We are reaching an audience. We may not be Sky TV, but we have an audience.

As for those policemen, it sounds to me like they were trying it on. What a presumptuous notion, wanting to move into your 'nice house', indeed. Hmpf.

If I find any hot tips about literary agents, I'll let you know. And you do the same for me. Lots of scams out there.

>>In some situations I DO keep quiet. Such as in my art class: I KNOW for a fact if I speak up there, people will take offense and it will sour my relationship with them - and I need the art classes very very desperately, despite the problems it's still my one link with outside society.

What do you think would happen if you spoke your mind? Would they forbid you from attending? Have they ever done that to anyone else? None of us learn anything from people who will only agree with us.

>>Dmitri - would you be interested in writing about what it was like to grow up on Apartheid South Africa? We were humans although we made mistakes - some people today would think 'humanising' Afrikaners means condoning evil - while I say it will make people realise just how easy it can be to do evil while not necessarily being evil yourself - just a matter of incorrectly interpreting the effects and implications of your beliefs. It can and does happen all over the world, still. The thing about good intentions paving the road to hell

I know I would be interested in reading it, it is a subject that has long interested me. Did you read my Post Entry about segregation in the US A87741255? None of us are responsible for the society we are born into. If we can share what we saw and learned from it, that is the best we can do.



F S

Amen, FS.

Hmmm...

>> I don't know if that is a reasonable rent but it sounds pretty low
and also I remember this was mentioned after the cops who came to get
me described how big and nice the house was in which I was living alone. <<

Of course I don't know exactly where you are in SA but my first
thought was to open the house to tourists. Again not sure how
many rooms you have but $50 each night for every room rented
would be considered a bargain among the Bed and Breakfast crowd
in this country (Canada) and the UK or much of Europe.

This might solve three problems; cash flow, companionship and a
ready market for your original artworks.

Before you dismiss it as having potential problems at least make
a few inquiries with a local Tourism association for guidance,
advice and possible cooperative investment and management.

Thoughts?


~jwf~

My first thought is that that sort of thing entails a lot of work, a lot of disruption to routine and lifestyle (not always in a good way) and quite a bit of instability. I don't think it's the sort of thing I would want to undertake when I'm not well.

I think you still have to be careful with people (the police etc) ... as you say if you feel there might be something wrong in their intentions it would be helpful if you were able to discuss it with friends, people you can trust maybe a little better ... maybe such as some of the people you have met here on h2g2. How long have you been in the town your in presently? Is it the same town you grew up in and where you went to school?

I don't really know your specific situation where you live and how the police are organised etc but I think it is always wise to be cautious of other peoples suggestions, especially if it is clearly going to be beneficial to them rather than to you or at least both of you. As a rule I will try not to be put in a position where I feel others are trying to compel me to make an on the spot decision, especially if it involves an agreement of sorts or if it involves money or something equivalent to money. I will always want to have time to think about it on my own or time to discuss it with others. So I will generally say I am unable to make a decision at the time but I will get back to them.

With regard the Christian group in your Art group, I wouldn't think there is much to gain to argue with them too much on their beliefs ... you can't change everyone ... better to try to understand them and file it away in your mind for reference. Maybe the main focus there is to practice and develop your art, and discuss art topics.

Although they are becoming less popular because of the internet etc, one possible way of producing a small income as well as another interaction with the community where you live might be through producing hand made cards (birthday cards, special event cards etc). Maybe the local newsagent and other stores might be willing to stock them for selling.

StoneAart

Just a quick comment on ~jwf~ suggestion, one doesn't need to commit to the idea in order to investigate the possibilities. One can just enquire what the market is like, the current going rates, the insurance costs, the legal issues, health and safety issues, how one would manage it etc.

Of course, you can investigate possibilities. But I think it's important to be quite prosaic and boringly realistic about the here-and-now, too. Sometimes setting the mind racing with great new schemes isn't always the best thing to do, but that's just my thought on it. I don't have all the answers.

>> setting the mind racing with great new schemes
isn't always the best thing to do <<

Absolutely true! But perhaps investigating the possibilities
will at least divert the mind from the currently negative
cyclical thinking of clinical depression.

I mean if he's sitting alone in a huge Victorian beach house
filled with original art, he might consider putting up a sign
saying Tourist Rooms available and Art For Sale. But first
some planning and seeking guidance from others in the business
or from government agencies who license and regulate them.

And of course there is no rush to sell all the original art. In fact,
while these may be on display with huge price tags, the real
money might be in reproductions - from actual size down to the
post cards mentioned above.

If I was a tourist in SA and saw reproductions of his work which
represents so many indigenous species I would feel I had to buy
as many as I could. Though I doubt I could even afford a full set
of postcards if they are priced to their real value.

Perhaps a wildlife agency or even the Tourism industry would be
interested in publishing his work and reproducing them for sale.
A biologist from a nearby university could offer valid critiques.

What we need here is someone familiar with SA business practices
especially in the art, environmental and tourism sectors.

The comments from the Police really do suggest they see something
there that has 'potential'. Maybe they're thinking 'brothel'. But I guess
that also depends on location. And proper management.


~jwf~

Point of Comparison with Britain.

Britain has the National Health Service & National Welfare. I spoke a little while ago to the friend I mentioned as having something similar to you. He was diagnosed as having a mild psychosis about twenty years ago, which soon developed into a more serious psychosis. He was put on a number of antipsychotic drugs (tablets as well as injections) … and there was some trial and error in terms of finding a prescription that would control his condition. About 6 years ago he was diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia. His current medication is:

Daily 15mg Aripiprazole (tablet) in the morning & 45 mg Mirtazapine (tablet) at night
When needed Orphenadrine (tablet) is taken to control a side effect of the Aripiprazole.

When he was first put on this medication about 7 years ago he was prescribed 5 mg Aripipazole & 15 mg Mirtazipine but the dosage has since been increased twice due to development of tolerance. When he first took Aripiprazole he became sick but those effects wore off after about a month.

This he say controls his condition so that he is able to live normally. His medical costs are paid for by the NHS, he also receives housing benefit and welfare benefits. The symptoms he describes suggests he has a different form of the condition than you have.

All right ... right now feeling raw and gutted but not too bad. I'm going to get back to some sort of work today. I drew a little mouse yesterday. Question: would you folks like a preview of the picture or will you want to wait to see it in Colours of Wildlife?

I also just got my car back from the panelbeaters. Three weeks without a car probably also contributed to the stress I was experiencing. More on that later I hope ...

I appreciate everyone speaking here and I want to make this about more than just me. Earlier today I received a message from a friend who is ALSO suicidal right now. While I don't wish to identify him or give away too much, there are similarities between his and my problems, and he posted a link about yet another suicide ... and the people *here* mentioning having been suicidal or having friends who were or having mental health problems ... am I wrong in thinking we do have a huge problem here that we are not doing enough about?

But first just to answer some questions and speak about some suggestions:

JWF, I do appreciate your comments and suggestions, but I'd just like to clarify a matter or two. What I have is *not* clinical depression, it is paranoid schizophrenia. The difference is that clinical depressed people want to commit suicide because of pure depression: sadless, feelings of hopelessness, worthlessness, inability to see a brighter future. With paranoid schizophrenia you become suicidal because of the elements of your paranoia and delusions, and you do feel hopeless and negative about the future but *these feelings can be linked to highly unrealistic paranoid delusions*. So you may be terrified of something that doesn't even exists ... you may be worrying yourself to death about a situation you are totally misinterpreting. As I've explained or tried to here, those delusions are not at all easy to fix.

With the suggestion of renting out the house to tourists: I have thought of having tourists here, but they have to be people I could really, really trust to great lengths. The 'paranoid' part of my affliction means I have difficulty trusting people. And also I have a lot of weird and eccentric things, harmless behaviours I am certain that nevertheless will seem very, very strange to strangers. As for the house itself: first of all it actually belongs to my sister, so renting it or having anyone but me living in it would have to go by her. The house is big by *South African* standards - where lots of people live in tiny tin shacks. As it is, it's a not very nice looking house, with a flat corrugated sheet roof, over thirty years old now. It is nowhere near the sea. It is in a suburb of Polokwane, a medium-sized city in the far north of South Africa. There are interesting tourist destinations in the region. There is a guest house, much nicer and bigger than my house, right across the street from me.

But still the issue is with having someone come into my house which is now my own safe and private place where I can do things like paint, exercise, listen to loud music any time I want to, and my cat lives here also and she is very important to me and strangers scare her.

The real ideal would be finding a nice girl who's willing to settle down with me, and then we can fill the house with a real family again.

The idea of selling reproductions of my art on cards or posters is a good one and I will look into the possibilities - I will speak with people here, I do know several art shop and gallery owners as well as people in the printing business.

Stone Aart: yes there are many different ways in which paranoid schizophrenia can manifest. In my own case I've never had auditory hallucinations for instance, but I suffer from delusions and uncontrolled obsessive thoughts. I might perhaps have to see a psychiatrist again but I am reluctant. Back when my parents still lived they could encourage me and take me there but now because I'm alone I can easily avoid doing it. Anyways I get no housing benefits, no welfare benefits. But more about financial matters later ...