h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi Walter,

I'm not sure how to play this game so I will follow your lead.

Was Virgil around then, I know he wrote about the battle of Atrium and that was in the time of Cleopatra and Augustus, other than that I will have to have a look in my books to see.

Let me know if Virgil is not ok and then I will find someone else.

(and you don't get to be a god they were too difficult)



Moondancer

Hi Moondancer,

Who said it was a game? Virgil snuffed it before our selected date (23BC relying on rapidly fading memory). If you want a writer, Ovid is pretty big right around this time, although shortly to get into VERY big trouble with Augustus. Take your time, no rush; it is important to get our identities established right.

Walter.

Hi,

Yes I worked that out about Virgil, but I knew his work and I liked him, so we keep him for another time .

It is all a game my friend, that is where the fun in life comes from. I will have a little read of Ovid and dredge around in here in the net to see what I can find.

At least my husband will be happy this will get me back studying instead of chatting on the net.

See ya

Moondancer

Hi Walter,

Ovid is fine, he still have another 6 years before he is kicked out and he is in the prime of his writing, Quite influential in his position.

I have not been able to find anything on Livia, but I only have the Internet here I will call at the library tomorrow. I do know about her and I have read different things about her but that was nearly 5 years ago, so that is stretching my memory.

So, please explain this to me, how you set this scene up as I have not done it before. I will not play the dumb high school educated blond (because you know I am not), and you won't pretend to be the sulking ignored lover


Moondancer

Hi Moondancer,

Well, to answer your question, I don't know. It's not my nature to think anything through very far in advance, but I sort of figured it this way. The time, 3BC is just a number, probably the year Christ was born. But 'our' year could be 2BC, or AD14 (although that doesn't leave much room to play with 'cause Augustus died that year). I think you have to set some kind of date before you can go exploring very far. Okay, next we need to get a feel for who the 'players' are at that time. To keep it from getting unruly, probably stick with big Romans. Hence Livia. Now some think she was the power behind Augustus, and some don't. Some think she was the most ruthless, scheming, devious, manipulative and unscrupulous woman who ever lived, and some think she was the absolute model and example for aristocratic Roman women. As for Ovid, if that's your nomination, fine, although there is considerable uncertainty as to when he was actually banished from Rome and why. Ovid himself said there were two reasons, a poem and an error (of judgement, a mistake, but the Latin is error). Ovid outlived Augustus, but was never permitted to return from exile.

The next bit is the hard part. Once the time and the characters and the place are established, we go looking for a 'historical circumstance/event.' It might be, for instance, the birth of Christ, or the banishment of Ovid, or whatever takes your fancy. We look at it from the perspectives of our characters, their involvement, their attitude, their considerations. Evidence is thin, so we try to fill in the gaps, plausibly reconstruct what happened, and why. And the effects of what happened. So basically, choose a topic and let's see how we fare. Of course, if you think this is a load of cobblers, we can always go back to the drawing board, or abandon the project altogether if the idea doesn't do much for you.

You sound tetchy this week, as though you are worried about something. I hope that's not the case or if it is, I hope whatever is worrying you goes away. Take care,

Walter.

Hi Walter,

I am very sorry if I sounded tetchy, I did not mean to be and not to you anyway, I have had a difficult week but I think that I have worked through it.

I read a little about Ovid and I thought he sounded interesting, and someone who you could build on. I'm glad you picked Livia for me, I have read a bit about her and I saw her in a video that I watched and of course I can't remember which it was probably I Cladauious, and I found her interesting. Ovid's banishment is too late doesn't leave enough time to play with, I will pick up some books on my way home tonight, see if I can find a situation that attracts me.

I believe her to be a very powerful woman but I do not think any person was the power behind Augustus. Yes I think she was a ruthless scheming woman but that was how one survived in those times.

I think it is a great idea, and I'm feeling excited and eager to get in to it. Even the thought of having a reason to read some of the history books again gives me a good feeling.

I'm glad you pointed out I was being a bitch, I don't want to be.

Moondancer

Hi Moondancer,

You don't have to be sorry, everyone gets like that sometimes and has those kinds of days or weeks. I'm glad you are through it okay.

Yes, I think we may be on the right track. It's hard to see right through this stuff, but maybe it is a joint exploration/examination from which we expect to set down conclusions based on whatever evidence we can dig up and the rest is supplied by reason, logic, interpretation. Have some fun, but keep it on reasonably sound history writing principles.

'I Claudius' the video is superb, but you can probably find the book in your local library (it is by Robert Graves). There is also a follow-up book, 'Claudius the God' which covers the period from when Claudius becomes emperor to his death. The video sort of amalgamates the two, but from memory it is twelve episodes. There are some other sources (Suetonius 'The Twelve Caesars' for instance) which would give you a very racy and readable account of Augustus and his life, and it isn't very long at all, maybe forty pages or so. I think Graves did the translation for that, too.

Livia is endlessly fascinating. Augustus divorced his wife to marry her, and Livia was actually carrying her second son (Drusus) when they wed. I won't get into why Augustus chose to do this (I don't actually know for a start and anyway, it may become part of our research and conclusions). Yet she bore him no children, especially the son he craved. He had plenty of time and opportunity to ditch her and take another wife, but did not. I figure, therefore, that Livia must have had something going for. Just what that was we can maybe explore.

I'll be in here in the morning, so hopefully chat to you then.

Walter.

Hi Walter,

I still have not found much on Livia, but I still like her so I will look harder, I am picking up the twelve Caesars and Claudius the God tomorrow. I remember reading I Claudius when I watched the video, it had a great genealogy chart in the back, which was a little wider than the direct line, it showed some of the Egyptian and African connections.

I found an interesting site on bloody history last night, the guy had a bit of a comic attitude to history. I hear my teacher telling me that all historian writhe with their own leanings, as Roy & HG would say their particular tilt. Hahahah that means this can history with out tilt also .

He implies Augustus to be a bit of a wimp, I don't think he was a wimp not as much as some others were. But we might explore that.

I will see ya latter

Moondancer

Hi Moondancer,

Got waylaid yesterday so have had to come in today (Sunday). One of the problems with imperial Roman history is that there are very few surviving writtens sources, and even those that do exist are not necessarily accurate. In fact it often astonishes me just how much is made by academics of 'ancient sources' when many of them are demonstrably unreliable as 'historical' or 'factual' evidence.

You are quite right, there is not a heck of a lot on Livia, and what there is consists of a few dry facts and the odd bit of innuendo. This is why I love Robert Graves' 'I Claudius/Claudius the God'. Sure, it is a historical novel, but everything he wrote is at the very least plausible. He took the few available bald facts and brought these characters vividly to life. Of course, the downside to that is the stereotype of Livia etc left in many people's minds. Nevertheless, even on the thinnest evidence, the influence of women 'at the top' in this period is clear and not to be underestimated - look for instance at Agrippina the Younger.

Anyway, I think the way ahead is to just have a bit of a wander through Augustus' rule, get a feel for it. Nothing too intense, just a feel, a bit of an idea of the key events and people. Just in case you have any difficulty finding it, Livia and Augustus were married 38BC. Augustus was then 25, and already had a daughter, Julia. I'm not sure of Livia's age, but she must have been around the mid twenties or so, and she already had one son, Tiberius, and was pregnant with another, Drusus. Take care,

Walter.

Hi Walter,

I picked up both The Twelve Caesars, one by Michael Grant also,
and the I Claudious video, I watched the first tape, Ha had Livia a bitch didn't he . But what a great character. Like in "Good girls go to heaven bad girls go everywhere". And most of the good girls died young.

I found a copy of Augusta's adultery laws, and our time was about the time when Julia was banishes, I'm not sure if there is enough information for about that time. But I thought the attitude towards the laws and the banishing of Julia, and whether Livia had organized it, tell me what you think about that.

If I found little on Livia I found very little on Ovid, I can find his poems ok but not the man, so if you cant find anything and he is not satisfactory I don't mind if you make other suggestions. Not that I (Livia) have left anyone who is worth looking at alive.
And I (Moondancer) thought Tiberius was a wimp, that was probably why his mother chose and manipulated him.



Have a great time researching, I will.




Moondancer

Hi Moondancer,

Ovid is just fine. Your idea about the downfall of Julia the Elder sounds very promising. Interesting line with A's adultery laws and Julia, and whether Livia had a hand in it. Julia the Younger went the same way as her mother in AD8.

Walter.

Hi Walter,

I have had a great time this weekend rummaging around my old schoolbooks on Rome. And I watched the first video in I Claudius. My husband is watching it with me, he is waiting for the sex and debaucher, I didn't tell him it would not happen till the third tape .

I picked up two books on Ovid's poems, one early one on his love poems and the latter one "Sorrows of an Exile". I had an eye appointment this morning (thank God for Kepler), so I read his sorrows till they got to blurrrryyyy. Starting to enjoy them.

Come to notice everything is still a bit blluurrrryy. So I will see you laster when things have come in to sharper focus.

I found the genealogy sheet I lifted from Claw Claw's book. With such tight inbreeding it is amazing they only had one badly disabled and two heavily insane, but then what is sanity .

See ya around

:X :X :X

Moondancer

Hi Moondancer,

Was it just a 'regular' eye check? Most people I know reckon their eyes are shot to ribbons at this time of year because we've just come out of winter so far more time inside looking at teev and computer screens, and it's pretty well the end of the uni year, so eyes are clogged up with reading books and looking at endless pages of essays.

You do sound as if you have been having fun, and if nothing else comes out of this exercise, watching videos with your man can't be half bad - I hopeyou both sipped a glass or two through it. I'm not a thoroughgoing fan of Ovid's writing, but it does have wonderful historical contexts. I remember one of my favourite lecturers (now sadly dead) saying that all you needed to know about Ovid was that everyone is changed into an animal, a flower, a tree, or a rock (he was speaking about Metamorphoses). The 'Sorrows of an Exile' is not bad, but infuriatingly he doesn't actually tell us why Augustus banished him - the irritating git!!!

I've been reading Augustus's 'Res Gestae' (roughly translates as 'the big things he did during his life), which he wrote himself and had inscribed on his mausoleum. And Suetonius's 'The Twelve Caesars'. And about twenty books related to the reign of Elizabeth I, which is what my very overdue essay is about. Take care,

Walter.

Hi Walter,

I am just getting my self, some new glasses, the computer is a bit inclined to wear the eyes out.

I found some of Ovid's writing interesting, in a storm at sea, I like the way he shows how gods intervene in man's lives. I enjoyed Virgil's Aenead.

Phoebus was on Troy's side, Vulcan against her:
Venus a friend, Pallas an enemy.
Juno(and I cannot say that name without following it up with "the bitch")
Juno, preferring Turnus, loathed Aeneas,
Yet thanks to Venus' power safe was he.

Some of his writing was quite lyrical.

There was a part in I Claudious that I felt was funny. When Julia was asking Augustus if she could have another husband.

A. said "you have already had three"
J. wailed at him "but the first two dies"
A. replies "well that's not my fault".
and Livia standing in the background smirking.

That just got my sense of humour

I'll see you later



Moondancer

Hi Moondancer,

Have you ever read the Iliad. If you like the Aeneid, you would probably adore the Iliad, and maybe the Odyssey. The Iliad has been my favourite from when I was first introduced to it at school by my history master, when I was about ten. The heroes, playthings of the Gods. And Sophocles 'Oedipus Rex', the cruellest twist of fate the Gods ever played on any man. I'm drifting, as you can see, but I do just love the stories from classical antiquity.

'I Claudius' deals with Julia very well indeed and I think its answer might well be close to the facts. There is some historical evidence that she wanted Tiberius as her second husband, instead of Agrippa, but A wanted it differently. Stay away from the computer screen and realx with the teev or books for a few days - it is amazing how much better your eyes feel after even a short time away from the screen. Take care

Walter.

Hi Walter,

Next day feeling seeing better.

We watched until Caligula became Emperor last night, not quite into the sex and debauchery yet. I was probably being generous saying there were only 2 mad ones, there were probably more but it took different forms. On the other hand, was it the power in some like Augustus and Tiberius that created madness or was it just old age? Alternatively, were they mad they could have been completely sane. Besides who was counting the girls, how many of them were quite barmy?

Still reading, I have found a lot in my old class book, a lot that I hadn't read the first time. When I studied Rome, We mostly studied the art, we looked at Virgil's Aenead, and another play, about Happ.... forgot his name. And the art pieces for the later time. I looked at Trajan's column, and the arch of Titus. Both of which I considered to be pieced of literature as well as architecture.

Totally immersed in history

Moondancer

Hi Moondancer,

Totally immersed in history is the only way to be. I am so really pleased that you are enjoying it, because that is the key. Poor old Tiberius, he gets such a rotten press. I have always quite liked him, and think he probably was not half as bad as Tacitus and Suetonius make him out to be. Certainly he was a mainstay for Augustus. It is probably true that some of the big bananas were mad, and some of them were definitley bad and not nice to know, but perhaps we judge them using very different values to those that applied then (one of the greatest pitfalls in doing history). Are we seeing here proof of the adage that 'power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.'? I mean, these guys could basically do ANYTHING they wanted to and while some might grumble at that it was not seen as remarkable or necessarily out of order. After all, what is off-limits to an emperor, especially a living god? Who sets notions of right and wrong?

Take care,

Walter

Hi Walter,

One would expect the Roman royal family of the time to be a bit strange, considering how many cousins were married to cousins.

Not that in a lot of cases there was there was much chance of marring anyone else, in order to keep as few outsiders out of the family as possible, and the children were mostly pawns for gaining alliances and favours

Better than marrying your bad tempered daughter off to you enemy to make his life a misery .

The Roman has seemed to be rather cavalier about his kids, her kids and our kids, or back to tradeable merchandise.

On the subject of merchandise, why if divorce was so easy did Augustus have the need to produce such hard adultery laws? I feel it would be financial, where did women get their money from. Noble women that would not have worked, only from their dowry or their husbands. And if you divorced your husband did he have to give back the dowry, and if not where did you get another one for the next marriage.

I know I am flitting a bit, I need to have a solid thread to follow so I don't wander all over the place.

On a slightly tangent subject, I was listening to the guy who was adjacent to the commander in chief in Timor. And as I listened to him talk I could see the centurion at the head of a Roman campaign. In some respects war has not changed much since then. I also some time age on the History channel on Foxtel, saw Storman Norman describe how Hannibal got so far and almost defeated the Romans on their own soil. That was very interesting, strategic manoeuvres that he has used himself.

They were not just blood baths, they were organised blood baths.

Keep the Eagle flying

Moondancer

Hi Moondancer,

Just a quick couple of lines before I take off for the library. Augustus heavily promoted two related bits of legislation, the adultery law and his marriage laws. The marriage laws were essentially intended to induce the upper class to marry and have children, simple as that. The adultery law, which was and continued to be technically quite drastic, was essentially intended to ensure the paternity of offspring, terribly important that legitimacy was unquestioned in terms of continuance of an aristocratic house and inheritance. The laws applied to all Roman citizens, but their chief target was the nobility, the senatorial class. This is one of the reasons Augustus probably went ballistic when he discovered Julia's adultery: not only had she blatantly violated his very own laws and made him something of a laughing stock, she had cast into doubt the paternity and therefore the legitimacy of her three sons, two of whom Augustus had formally adopted as his own sons AND HEIRS. His dynastic ambitions, including hereditary succession by those of his own blood, were jeopardised by Julia's promiscuity. Take care,

walter.

Hi Walter,

I have had a very busy day today, I have berley been on here apart from the time you caught me ducking in for my foot massage.
I have done a bit of reading have the divorce laws but I do not have the marriage laws yet.

It is difficult to look at the situation from now and know what life was then or before, why was Augustus having trouble getting his knights to marry? Was it only financial, or was it because so many went of to war and considered having a house and family in Rome too much. Where with the sexual freedom and the numbers of prostitutes, was not an important enough reason to marry, and a mistress is cheaper than a wife, sometimes.

I read that Livia was 13 when she had Tiberius, so they started rather early. I think, apart from the fact that he did not want people divorcing and remarrying too often, Livia knew how to give him what he wanted and make herself indispensable. She was a clever lady.

With Augustus there was not much room for rehabilitation, the punishments were so dire.

Ok see ya around, must do some more reading.

Moondancer