h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Hi, it's the Autist here,

We've spoken many times before, and i just wanted to talk to you less publicly, perhaps more intimately; to try and gain the benefit of you knowlege, experience and opinions. Is that OK? During our conversations i have predicably drawn some assumptions so i thought i'd out line these so as to get a better idea of who you are. Have i got any of this right? The bulk of this is assumption / presumption, so if any of it is wrong or even offensive to you, don't talk it the wrong way - these are just my 'impressions' and i want them to be corrected.

You are Israeli. You are Jewish and have faith. You are involved in the (Israeli) armed forces in some capacity.

You feel your government justly neglects some domestic issues (labour rights, education / literacy, civil liberties, equality etc) keeping them on the back burner while it deals with the more pressing matter of the civil war in your country.

You are critical but by no means hostile to the USA, feeling that it is an important ally, but one it is improtant to be independent of. The US and Israel having (slightly) different interests.

You are, broadly speaking, anti-Palestinian. Not in a racist "All Palestinan are evil" sort of way, but at least perhaps in terms of feeling you are on an 'opposing side' that the interests of Israeli's and Palestinians are mutually exclusive, and that any gain for 'them' is a loss for Israel. And that you are opposed to the Palestinians either having political equality within your country, or a state of their own.


What makes me interested is that you are the only Israeli person i know. I have never been to Israel as i have travelled too extensively in arab countries to get an automatic visa, so i'd like the benefit of your experience.

I am English. I am from a jewish background. I am an athiest. I am largely pro-palestinian (the people and their greater freedoms) while i question the effectiveness (and often the motives) of their leaders and pressure groups. I am opposed to the Israeli government (though not it's people) and am extremely critical of it's links to the US.

My personal belief is that it is in the interests of all Israeli's and all Palestinians to have peace, freedom and equality - freedom and equality in political, economic and social issues. I think that the current structure of partisan politics in your country serves only those involved in it - those at the top making the decisions (on both 'sides') benefit from division or war or both - to the expense of their people.

Is this too simplistic a view? What is your oppinion and experience or both your own people and your Palestinian cousins? Or is this subject not something you wish to spend your freetime discussing?

Just interested.

The Autist.

Hi Autist,

We have spoken meny times before, and apart from the Jewish background I think I understood your background and oppinions pretty well from those conversations, but I'm afraid My lack of time, and bad (well, not so bad, but bad enough) english made a verry wroong impression on you.

I will try to answer all the issus you raised here, but if I miss something, please tell me, as this is going to be a *long* reply (I will fragment it into a few postings.

Just know that I'm not easily offended, so feel free to express yourself freely and honestly. I promise I will do the same.


Dancer

I am Israeli and Jewish with faith but absolutely not religious. I keep close to none of the jewish religious customs, and those I keep are kept as a custom, not as a religious matter.
I served in the (Israeli) armed forces (the IDF) for 3 years, as do most Israely men (women usually serve less).

As to feeling "your government justly neglects some domestic issues (labour rights, education / literacy, civil liberties, equality etc) keeping them on the back burner while it deals with the more pressing matter of the civil war in your country."
I don't think it fully, but I do think that Israel is a country with these other issues, and that's the main issue here. It is no longer an issue of survival as it used to be, but it is a matter of security. Israel is currently unsafe.

It is important to mention though that the issue **isn't** civil war, as the Palestinians aren't citisens of Israel. The only country they were ever citisens of is either Jordan for the west bank Palestinians or egypt for the gaza strip ones.
The arabs who are citisens of Israel don't call themselves palestinian (which is a modern use of an ancient name, and the ancient Palestinians aren't the ones who call themselves Palestinians these days.

I do feel that the USA is an important ally, but one it is improtant to be independent of.
And, I do belive that the US and Israel have quite different interests.
I am not critical towards the USA though. I belive it is doing what they feel is best for their interests, and I wouldn't expect them to do otherwise. I wouldn't expect my goverment to do something else then take care of Israel's interests either.
I'm just thankfull that USA's interests are ones that Israel benefit from, but I think when the day comes and that is no longer true, Israel should be able to stand on it's own and hold against the sorrounding countries, which are (presently & mostly) hostile.

I am, broadly speaking, Pro-Israeli.
I do not think "All Palestinan are evil" but I do belive that for historical reasons, we are on 'opposing sides'.
I think that presently the interests of Israeli's and Palestinians are mutually exclusive, though not *any* gain for 'them' is a loss for Israel.
and I certeinly do not oppose the Palestinians having a state of their own. Though they still don't have one, and in my oppinion aren't absolutely ready for onw, but probably will have to be soon (hopefully).

I do NOT!!! think though that it is possible for them to have real equality with Israeli citisens in Israel. Even the arab citisens of Israel don't have a real equality (they can't and don't serve in the army. Druse (a religion and ethnic group of people who live in Israel) are true equals, and also serve in the army, but it is only possible because they are a verry small group of people.
When Israel was declared after WW2, it was because the UN decided that the Jews were prosecuted for the last time in the holocoust, and that a country for the Jewish people should be formed. Israel therefore can never be ruled by someone other then the Israely Jewish people, and It is quite difficult to become a citisen of Israel without a Jewish background (though it is possible).
The Israeli army is what sustains the country, and it is mostly (I'd say over 99%) jews who serve in it.

There are several other h2g2 researchers who are jews, and even one that is (supposedly, as he isn't so active nor responsive) palestinian.
Lady Elly is Jewish for instance (Bob's newly wed wife - bothe h2g2 researchers who met on h2g2 and are now wed).
If you feel you would like to come and visit Israel, I will be happy to send you a letter of invitation to visit me, a thing that will make the Visa issuing easier.

I question the effectiveness and motives of the palestinian leaders and pressure groups, and also question the effectiveness of the Israeli leaders' ways of action, though I do belive the Israeli leaders' true cause is peace. It is imprinted on the Israeli community.
Almost all the songs in hebrew that are not about love or social criticism are about peace and the yurning for it, while there is only one peace song in the whole of the arab language (to my knowledge, and I looked for it alot!) about peace, and it was done by an Israeli, and then sung by an arab, and was played only a few times, and only on an Israeli radio station.
I do not see how you can be opposed to the Israeli goverment, do you mean you do not agree with their ways of action? what would you suggest? Are you opposed to the existance of Israel as a whole?

What you say this was offered once, and was refused, I do not think it is possible now to make tha palestinians equal citicens in Israel. The palestinians are the ones who oppose the existance of Israel. those who didn't oppose it are citicens of Israel (Largely and historically speaking).
Another thing is that the palestinians aren't willing to leave in peace with Israel. Alot of them (Though alot won't) will give their last son to the fight to destroy the Israeli country (This was true since the first day Israel was declared. The same day started the "War of independance" that was started by arabs who objected to the Israeli country. We won that war, and concured alot of area so Israel became larger then it was initially. All wars were started by arabs in order to destroy Israel or by Israel when arab pressure became too great (Like the 6 days war), and in all we won, and in most we councured area. We didnt want nor start those wars, but we did win, and with these winnings we got those who are now called Palestinians (Back then they were still citicens of Jordan or Egypt).

We were even ready to give back the land we concured in these wars and go back to the borders the way they were over 30 years ago, but because we wouldn't divide Jerusalem they refused. They now show signals of acknowledging that it was a mistake not to accept those terms, but the Israeli faith in the cincerety of the Palestinians in now in bad shape (I admit that mine is the same way, and I am saddened by that).
I do still think that this is the only solution and should be implemented, but with great carefulness.

And if you are interested to know, I am verry much left wing (In Israel it is The liberal side, which is more "Pro-Palestinian").

Yours,

Dancer

Your view of the things is simplistic in the manner that it doesn't take into account alot of things that are either unknown to someone who only hears about the situation in the news/media or ununderstandable to someone on the outside of the conflict.

I do not mind discussing it, but it is a long discussion, so be ready for it, and think if you want/have the time to discuss it.

What I do think is that the palestinians are being rased with hate. Not just theirs that is derived from their experiance, but also, and mostly the one given to them by their schools and media and parents, while the Israeli schools, politicians and media is trying to teach to not hate them and to try and settle things. Israeli schools and media are left wing controlled (mostly and on the media side, almost entirely).

Every Israeli kid is tought to be carefull but none is tought to hate.
Every Palestinian kid is tought to hate, though carefulness is quite neglected, and human life is not tought to be a sacred thing.


Dancer

Hi,

Thanks for that, i wanted to have this conversation because i wanted to be better informed on the subject.

To ask some further questions:

You said <>

My understanding was that Israel was founded illegally, against the mandate of the UN and Great Britian (whose protectorate it was) but that it was accepted as a legitamate government by the US and gradually by the rest of the world. I was under the impression that is was the rejection of the UN programme for two states in the area that formed the grounds for the arab coallition declaring war upon Israel. (These are very old history lessons - litterally at my daddys knee - so i'm going to have to look this stuff up).

I also thought that the fundation of a Jewish state, and the roots of Israel, dated back further than that, to the Balfour declaration giving a British manadate to Zionism back in the 20's.

I am also very aware that the word "Palestinian" is a word that has only really had currency here (in the UK) since the late sixties. It seems a little artificial, and i'm unsure exactly which groups belong to it.

In Israel you have large Jewish, Christian and Moslem groups. All of whom have fought each other in recent years. The term "Palestinian" generally seems to be used to describe moslems living in Israel. In terms of race it's a broadly Jewish / Arab division is it, all semetic peoples at least?

You refer to citizenship - how do Palestinians come to live within your borders and yet not be citizens, and you also refer to Arab Israelis as citizens. This is a very clouded picture to me.

<>

Do you really believe that? That's very sad. (Both if it's true, and that you should believe that). Surely most Palestinians are just trying to get on with their lives and keep their heads down. Or do you mean they are taught to hate by the Israelis?

Oh dear, you appear to have been censored!

And so have I! Hmmnn. I'm not usually paranoid (well not much) but i've just been locked out of my account since that last post - only to come back and find that i've been censored too!

It seems a shame that we can't have a reasoned conversation on the subject of why people hate and where prejudice comes from.

My previous post said:

<>

Do you really believe that? That's very sad. (Both if it's true, and that you should believe that). While i'm sure some militant Palestinian families do teach quite hateful things to their children, surely most Palestinians are just trying to get on with their lives and keep their heads down. But i cant help thinking there are probibly a similar number of Israeli families propagating similar hatred, it's just a sad fact of the world that some people teach their children to be bigots, and that bigots are a very vocal and influential group. Or do you mean they are taught to hate by the Israelis?

<>

I'm not sure which side is which here, my understanding is something like: Right Wing - Likud / Herut (Nationalists) who were bourne out of the Irgun and Haganah terrorist / guerrilla groups. Begin, Shamir and Sharon.

Left Wing - Mapai / Labour (Socialists) who were bourne out of the Histadrut trades union movement. For some reason i can't think of any modern left wingers! Bengurian was the founder though, yes? The more i think about it the more i realise i've not heard anything about them in the news for years! But then all British news stories are told in terms of personalities not parties.

That's about everything i know about Israeli political history!

Is that how you see it over there? I understand there is a dizzying array of minor parties too, who sometimes have power sharing agreements.

<>

I must admit, i thought that East Jerusalem was part of the 'occupied territories' as they're known over here, and was part of the spoils of the Six Day War.

So are the people of all the occupied territories Palestinians, or just the ones in the west bank? Do you know why they (the west bankers) were treated so badly by the Jordanians?

Israel *was* founded legally! There was a UN vote and it passed. I heard and saw the recordings of the vote and of people celebrating afterwards meny times. Israel was declared by a UN vote, and the british mandate over Israel was goin to end anyway.
The foundation of Israel dates back thousands of years. But the Balfour declaration definitely was a great step towards the returning of the Jews back to Israel.

The grouped called Palestinians are the ones who are Arabs (an absolute majority of muslims, but some are christian)
The christian groups didn't fight over Israel (as a homeland) for meny years... last time was before gunpowder.
Israel has meny groups, the main ones are:
Jewish Israelies - Citicens.
Druse - Citicens.
Israeli Arabs - Citicens, though they do not serve in the army. They are either arabs who did not engage in war against Israel, and accepted the Israeli state or ones that were concured in the earliest fightings and didn't leave Israel. Those who left, nowdays want to return, but aren't allowed, as the places they left behind became Israeli land (most of this was over half a century ago)
The palestinians live in the occupied territories, and I must admit, I do not see them as an integral part of Israel, just as irland isn't a part of britain. When ready, I think the palestinians should rule over these areas.


Dancer

<>
This is true, It was reveled in late studies of the Palestinian school system - Kids at Palestine are tought alot of horribly twisted facts, and Israel is not mentioned even once in the Entire educational system (A kid goes from kinder garden to graduation without Israel being mentioned even once)


Dancer

The same recent study talks about the hate that is being tought at home, but I seem to not be allowed to talk about that here

I belive it, as I was among them while I was in the army, so I have also alot of first hand experiance with Palestinian youth.

I admit alot of Israelies hold hatered towards the Palestinians and that it is being tought both conciously and subconceously to the kids of these people, and I can hardly say I don't feel that sometimes, as open minded and as liberal as I am. When I hear a mother praising her sone who just exploded and killed 6 Israeli kids I just feel despair more then anything else. But alot of despair about the same thing brings hatered to the source of it.
I don't think they are tought to hate by the israelies per-sae, but it happens because Israelies have to guard passages and all that.
When I was in the army I sometimes had to guard passages from the occupied teritories to Israel, and it means body searching and behaving roughly. It felt bad to do that, but I have to. We are 2 20 year old Israelies and we have over 60 Palestinian men (usually about 20 to 50 years old, but sometimes also a few kids, women and old people) we have to control. I was surprised to see they fear us the first time I did it, as we were 2 kids sorrounded by tens of men... it was a weird and frightening thing to see.

Left Wing People: Issac Rabin, Shimon Peres, Ben Gurion, Waizman...

Jerusalem Is a verry contreversial issue. And it is considered highly holly by all three major monotheist religions, but although it is mentioned dosens of times in the bible and new testiment, it isn't mentioned even once, not even by a vague clue in the Kuran (The muslim holly book).

All the arabs in the occupied territories are called Palestinians.
About the ones on the west bank... The Jordanians treated them badlly the same way alot of Arab countries treat minorities within them (and sometimes the minority rules, so it treats the majority badly - as it is in seria). I do not remember exactly the reasons with the arabs, but the same things and even worse (up to masacure levels) happened in Iraq (with the Kurdies), Iran, Seria, and alot of other places (including Afganistan)


Dancer

[Dear Autist and Moderators: These messages were brought to you by Dancer, typed on the great UltraEdit32 Editor, and posted to h2g2 in easily moderateable chinks.]

[Aside to the moderators: I didn't recive and moderation mail as my companie's mailserver is temporarily down and I have mail recival problems. Sorry if this causes trouble at any end]

Love,

Dancer

I haven't recieved moderation messages on this either. Odd. I was hoping they might be reinstated.

Why Israel instists on holding on to the occupied territories (and particularly why the building programs etc persist seems a mystey to be - i just strikes me that it must cost a fortune to police and organise - when that money could be spent so much better policing your own internal borders.

I looked up the UN thing. And it does seem to me that the UN came up with a proposal (divison of the area into two states with serveral intersection points, with Jerusalem as an international zone - in the same way that Tangeir was at the time) when niether side was completely happy with this proposal (the Palestinians refusing outright), rather than going into negotiation, Bengurian just took the place by force - which sounds a bit out of order - but in fact he more or less implimented the UN plan, fixing the early boarders at similar points (though crucially not observing the intersection points - which divided the Palestinians into the areas we now know as the occupied territories, which made founding a single state a little difficult. Also the neighbouring states, having incorporated sections of Palestinian land, did nothing to encourage these new territiories to form a government.

It would be interesting to find out whether the Palestinians had been planning to form some kind of state prior to Jordan allowing the big CIA orchestrated massacres in the early 60's.

"Why Israel instists on holding on to the occupied territories"
Not holding them means it will be harder to securethe borderline. In fact, there are alot of Palestinian ruled areas, but still alot of the occupied territories are Israeli ruled.

"and particularly why the building programs etc persist seems a mystey to me"
It does cost too much and I don't agree with it. Most Israeli don't, but the group who insists on this and it's continual is quite strong politically as they get alot of votes even from people who don't think like they do politically (It's a group with religious background, and they have alot of influance, which is quite bad and annoying to people like me. I pay about 50% income tax, and alot of it is used to support the people of this group and other religious groups, who are learning the bible, and don't work nor serve in the army. It's a vig contreversial issue here in Israel.

You got the UN thing wrong again though.. there was the division plan which was rejected by the arab side and accepted by the israeli (jewish) side. It wasn't implemented because the arab side didn't want it, and only later the UN voted about dividing Israel, and when the UN vote was passed Israel was formed.

The arabs then attacked and that's when the intersection points were eliminated, because we won that war (eventually, it wasn't a verry short war).


Dancer

Oh, and I don't know alot about "Jordan allowing the big CIA orchestrated massacres in the early 60's"


Dancer

A couple of Postings in this conversation were hidden 'pending a decision by the Editorial team'. They have now been reinstated. Moderation emails are only sent out when a posting has been reviewed and failed. Please note that the in-house team don't work at weekends, so it's necessary to wait until Monday morning for a decision on referred posts.

Thanks