h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Thanks for clarifying Della - it's good to know where people stand rather than making assumptions

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You appear to be contradicting yourself, Della. With most elective terminations there is usually the alternative of proceeding with the pregnancy and giving birth. So what would be the point of taking a friend or relative for second, third and fourth opinions other than as an attempt to stop her? And presumably you would be taking her to doctors or other people who share your anti-abortion viewpoint, not to a pro-choice advocate?

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Don't you mean, and make sure they accept *your* opinion that they have no other alternative?

az

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I have just read the intial posting, but haven't waded thro the backlog..*apologies* Perhaps I'll get it better when I have done some skimming thro the backlog...unless someone would be so kind as to break it down for me - I'm not too bright sometimes, partial birth abortion?

On another note, but the samish subject of abortion. It seems appropriate to post it here to see others points of view - a young woman who was raped...went to get a morning after pill at the chemist (CVS, it was on the news last week) she was turned away because the pharmacist didn't believe in abortion and wouldn't give her the pill. He was fired.

Okay after reading thro some of the backlog - took some time I'll tell you!....I see that it has jumped around. Presently it seems to be the debate for and against termination.

Has anyone ever actually had a termination here?

I have.

It was hard, and I'll regret it till I'm dead, when I look at my handsome son - I am filled with sadness sometimes and wonder about the first one.

It was my choice, I was offered counselling help but I declined as I was panicking and wanting 'it' out of my body at the time and then everything would be ok. I was not young at the time but stupid enough not to use contraception in the heat of the moment AND equally daft enough not to get the morning pill cos I couldn't miss a shift at work!

I had to wait 8 or so weeks (I forget exactly how many) by the NHS before it was removed, because they wouldn't have been, quote 'sure that it had been terminated being as it was so small' this was mental torture for me. It's all a bit of blur now.

I remember a girl in the bed next to me before I went in, who was boasting that this was her X amount of terminations. I was so MAD at her.

When I came out from under the anesthetic I felt utter loss.

My view on termination, my gut feeling - its wrong. If you are responsible enough to have sex then you should be able to take care of your own contraception - if not, do the term and have the baby adopted perhaps, if you can't handle the thought of baby.

If you have been raped, thats another thing entirely. I believe that the lady in question have a termination imediately. The doctors should as a matter of course make sure that when she is examined under anesthesia that she is well and truly scraped or whatever its called so that anything embedded is gone.

OK so that was rather a long posting. I look forward to others opinions of my point of view.

I don't know if termination is right or wrong. I'd probably think the latter except in unusual cases but I don't feel I've the right to decide whats right for other people on this (especially as I'm highly unlikely to ever be pregnant)

MV, quite a few women have shared on this thread their experiences of having an abortion. Thanks for adding yours.


While the thread was started by someone posting a challenge about late term abortions, I think its fair to say that the thread is now a general wide ranging conversation about abortion and related topics.

Partial Birth Abortion is a generic term created by the extreme anti-abortion lobby in the US to cover a range of late term abortions. PBA is usually used to refer to a technique where the fluid in the foetus' head has to be drained in order for the foetus to be removed. It is not a medical, or accurate, term for what is done.

As for the original challenge, it has been met several times. The link in the last page or two that I think blicky posted has at least one example - it's the one with the women testifying in the US against the late term abortion ban.


Thanks to Z for putting me on the right track re- descriptions of the technique. I'll post some links to what I found later.

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Della >>she should not decide on her own, bnut in consultation with her husband/partner, doctor etc. Notice I said in consultation with, not under the thumb of...<<

There are some women who have neither a husband/partner nor a doctor. Also I think where the father of the foetus is anti-abortion on principle, he's not necessarily going to be a useful person to talk to. Ditto anti-abortion doctors.

In fact thinking about it some more, I'd say that any doctor who is anti-abortion in their practice (as opposed to their views in their personal life which they shouldn't bring into a consultation), shouldn't be seeing women considering terminations at all. There is a clear conflict of interest and I think it's unethical for them to mix their view with a medical opinion (as was the case with Az).

~waves at B Cat and Della~

Thanks Kea for your acknowledgement of my input and mini briefing I actually didn't come across any postings whilst I was skipping thro I will have another look, I would like to know how others experienced their termination. It's not an easy thing to admit, its not something that I would pop out in a conversation to my friends and aquaintances, work colleagues etc. Here in the hootoo environment (in general) its kinda nice to post and examine what people think and re-evaluate your opinions or adapt others to your own. Or just to vent!

On the same note, I'm not sure how I feel about abortions if you discover that your child is handicapped in some way. I have met some very nice handicapped people and children who are a credit to our society and have known parents that have children with cerebral palsy.

The PBA sounds horrific

Touchy delicate subject.

Hiya mv
I'd agree
1 moment in their history the Catholic Church can be proud of was their opposition to the Nazi eugenics program
The idea that a child should be aborted because it would be born disabled seems inhumane to me but of course I wouldn't be taking care of it

Still wading thro some backlog seems like the subjects that I have mentioned have been hashed at length before.

I do hope that I am not too annoying and forgiven, being as I only just got here..

Hello Blicky, hope you are well haven't seen you in sometime!

After reading more backlog I still haven't read ALL of it, I jumped ahead again to more recent stuff....I got to the link you posted on the other page...

Thanks for posting it, it made sad reading, but opened my eyes to something I had not considered more fully.

Very rarely is there no alternative. If the problem is a violent or cheating partner, the woman can leave - welfare here is still available, though not generous. Actual physical medical necessity is vanishingly rare, and in that case, the woman would already be in consultation with doctors who were specialists in kidney problems, cardiology or diabetes, which I gather are the only *real* medical conditions that make pregnancy hazardous the a woman's survival. Most elective abortions here are performed on the grounds of the pregnancy being hazardous to the woman's 'mental health,' which is almost never the case - that's an excuse, and most women having an elective abortion acknolwledge that. I wonder how many young NZ women even know that purely elective abortion is technically illegal?
One woman I know had an abortion to spite her husband because he had been unfaithful. They later split up over this all, and she was filled with bitter regret because she would at least have had a child with him, even if their split was inevitable. Second or third thoughts would have benefitted *her* enormously!

kea, 'father of the foetus'? Isn't that a bit silly, taking the necessary pro-choice language too far? (It sounds ludicrous...)
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Does "a useful person to talk to"=someone who will not disagree with my already-made-up-mind? If a woman avoids hearing anyone who might contradict her, is she really 100% sure she's right? It's been my experience generally, in life, that anyone who can't handle an opposing view without getting upset, is unsure of her own view.

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Della, I think by 'alternative' you mean the alternative that seems most correct to you. To go through with the pregnancy no matter what.

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Define mental health. I think it is very harsh to say women use this as 'an excuse'. How do you know that 'most' women acknowledge this?

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It seems almost everyone has an 'I know one woman . . .' story. And sometimes that 'woman' is themselves. This does give a more personal viewpoint to things, but really does not prove one way or the other that choosing to terminate a pregnancy is either right or wrong. These are simply personal opinions. Some people end up regretting their decision, others say it was the best option they had at the time and are grateful they had the choice - and I'm sure there are millions of different responses in between.

Apparently you would have all women live according to what *you* believe is right and never have terminations. How is it possible to understand what goes on inside someone else's mind and heart enough to think you can possibly know what is best for everyone? How can you place your own personal beliefs ahead of how somebody else chooses to live their life?

This is my biggest beef with anti-abortionists. That they would like to choose for others. And that they believe they have the right to do this. I find this quite despicable.


az

<< 'father of the foetus'? Isn't that a bit silly, taking the necessary pro-choice language too far? (It sounds ludicrous...)>>

I'd say calling a foetus a 'baby' or referring to a dilation and extraction procedure as 'partial birth abortion' is ludicrous. Anyhow, calling either person a mother or father before a baby is born is no doubt technically incorrect but these terms are often used by both anti-abortionists and pro-choice people.

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*bites tongue!*

az

Hi big sis

Still *manning* the battlements I see.

Della, there is also pre-eclampsia, blood disorders and other health problems that can occur in later life that stem from having many children, these are just the things that we know about your a helpre in a school and Im a school caretaker and community worker. Lots of preganancies go off pretty much hitchless, but that does not mean that preganacy is not a risky business in terms of the mothers health does it? We get to see people walking down the street with bonny babies in our well off countries, but that is *not* the whole story.

Yes you are right women *can* leave abusive partners. Many dont though. If a woman who stays out of fear and because she might think its easier than leaving on her existing children could you really deny her the choice not to bring another child into that environment of ongoing horrific violence. Do you knoe what is does to a child tobe born into a relationship where they see their mother being beat, degraded and raped day after day?

Are you qualified to asses the risks involved for people you have never met or examined?

My guess is your not, but I doubt that this will *ever* stop you and people like you, giving out your extremely inconsiderate opinion.

one love

"kidney problems, cardiology or diabetes, which I gather are the only *real* medical conditions that make pregnancy hazardous the a woman's survival."

What about ectopic pregancies, or any other number of complications relating directly to the pregnancy? How do you define 'real' anyway- "a problem which you consider to be a justification for abortion"?

Hello all ~friendly waves~

Reading thro again and reading my posts again, it may seem that I came across as arrogant and a know all...I get overly eager into posting sometimes and hope that I didn't irritate anyone with my comment 'has anyone ever had an abortion in here' when I read that again , after wading thro some personal accounts it may have come across as taunting-ish, wasn't meant that way.

I have formed a tentative opinion for myself, after learning much from this thread.

Abortion is necessary.

I also feel, and hurtful as it is to myself to say this outloud in my head and by writing it down acknowledging it for myself - I think from the moment the egg is fertilized it is sentient, in that it wants to survive - all basic primitive instincts are telling it to. To my mind that is your very basic sentient life form.

I feel that I have nothing further to offer to this thread, not that I did much anyway!

Even if you didn't respond to my postings thanks for taking the time out to read them.

I do hope that for everyone here, that has painful memories that it lessens more with time, and that you can forgive yourself...and for those that have difficulty understanding those that have had a termination I hope that you can reach some sort of understanding and forgiveness for the choices that we choose to make.

MV

I did not think you were choosing to be arrogant it was a product of your ignorance and I mean that in the nicest possible way.

It is a long baclog, but Im glad and it will make you glad to have made some attempt at understanding other peoples ideas. The willfully ignorant and arrogant hurt themselves as much as others. thought I often dont show as much care for those who hurt themselves as the others that they hurt.

I did read your posts but for various reasons did not respond. In the main because I thought it best to let you drink in ideas from the backlog before getting locked into a tussle. Sorry for sounding sanctimonious.

one love

Della,

Referring to Kerr's posting, I really think you should be more careful before making such sweeping statements as they could easily taken as offensive. Btw, my condition does not come under what you would consider 'real' medical conditions, yet I was advised by three doctors not to continue with my pregnancy. As I have said before, it was only the anti-abortionist doctor who would have put my life at risk in order to satisfy his own sense of right and wrong.


az