h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I found the Glasgow Media group report mentioned above on the internet:

http://www.gla.ac.uk/Acad/Sociology/articles.htm

Specifically:

http://www.gla.ac.uk/Acad/Sociology/Israel.pdf

Xanatic

The Roman Census conducted in the first century CE records the Jewish population of The Land of Israel at 6,944,000. When Rome destroyed the Jewish cities, towns, and irrigation systems, they then transported approximately 2,000,000 Jews to Rome. Some of the remaining population scattered to other parts of the Middle East. Those who remained suffered the hostile irredenta of Byzantium, The Mamlukes, Seljuk Turks etc. But there has always been a population of Jews, especially in Jerusalem and Damascus. Under Muslim rule it was permitted for Jews to make pilgramages and burials. But very few Jews were permitted to re-settle. The last Ottoman Seraf (Prime Minister) of the Province of Southern Syria (roughly all of the Levant) was Rabbi Haim Pharci.

You can read about continuous Jewish presence here.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/presence.html

And this link gives a good accounting of the Palestinians.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/mixed.html

This was why I said “There are equally legitimate claims”

One other point, the above information can be confirmed in the records of the Ottoman Empire, the French and British Official Government records. (They’re just a pain to find)

Share and enjoy.

It seems Israel doesn't like the critisism we gave them. Shimon Peres is now saying European politicians are anti-semitic. And of course also plays the WWII card, by reminding us what has happened in Europe with jews before.

I think the BIG problem is that jews claims a "Godgiven" right to Israel, being "Gods Chosen People"( I also think that is very arrogant and megalomanic; being a devout atheist I really wouldn´t care if it wasn´t for the current situation.).I´ve never heard the Palestenians claiming an "Allahgiven" right to the land. What they say is, that it is a political struggle, and that they were kicked out of their own country.If we should found countries and states on 2000 years old history America wouldn´t exist and Denmark would extend itself to most of scandinavia, England, the southcoast of India (yes we sailed all the way down there and conquered), the westindic islands (Sct. Thomas et.al.)which we sold to USA in 1917 BTW for $17 mill., and forget about Australia and NZ and so on and so on...and that is why the pelestenians are regarding this as a fight for freedom and not an "Allahgiven Right".And let´s face it; what are they up against?There are several UN resolutions telling Israel to withdraw from the occupied areas, and that the settlements are illegal (according to the Geneva convention articel 49,4 it is illegal to deport your people to/ make settlements in occupied area)and Israel does not care, but continues to settle in these areas.Ariel Sharon said 20 years ago that if the settlers reached a number of 100.000 no Israeli government would dare to move them; at that time there were about 4000-5000 settlers.today there are 200.000. and a large part of those are fanatic american right wing jews.Apart from that Israel has got the probably most efficient army in the world, with F-16´s, tanks, Apache helicopters and laserguided missiles and of course loads of (semi)automatic hand weapons against stones and handweapons from the palestenian side.So what is there to do, else than to find alternative ways of retaliation; i.e suicidebombs(And yes here we have the Allah perspective of the struggle, but that equals the political fighting and religious freedomfighting of the I.R.A. But first of all it´s a political struggle).

Suicide bombs hits civilians you would say.But 80% of the Israelis are drafted 2-3 years and as such are in Israel per definition part of a standing army; everywhere in Israel you see Israelis in civil clothes and a machinegun (a very strange feeling the first time you queue up in a bank).The law is: Loose your weapon while drafted and you get 7 years of prison.So the argument of civilian losses is only a halftruth.

Then there´s a very interesting problem: The orthodox (Hasidic) jews who does not even recognize the state of Israel as such until Jesus comes back and proclaims it as such.That´s another of Israels problems.

I know the historical facts about the making of Israel, and I think it was a mistake to make the experiment in the first place; but now that there is a Israel it is vital that people in the region live together more or less peacefully, and I don´t think Sharons way of doing things are right, I think he´s a warmonger (see post 1) and has a well defined plan of extending Israel to the westbank and Gaza step by step. A man who says he want´s to burn and deport other people and make the world hate his country even if it costs some Israeli lives SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED BY ANYONE!



One totally integrated state would be the optimal solution; but a naïve thought.


T´mershi Duween.

T'mershi

"God's chosen People"?

Assuming you don't read cuneiform (ancient Hebrew) a literal translation is more correctly "Chosen to Serve God". Jews do not put themselves up as a superior people. Who actually did the choosing is, as you would expect, an ongoing religious debate.

I thought Ariel Sharon was an Essex typeface...

EtherZev:

I stand corrected.


Still they claim a "Godgiven Right" to Israel.

That´s what I don´t agree with.


TD.

T’mershi,

Acknowledged, it can get a bit tricky.

I’m not very good at profound introspective philosophy but call it “God” or call it “Home” millions of people on the planet have an attachment to places from which they came or their ancestors, gods, or spirits originated. This is inimical to the core of human psyche. Even people who consider belief systems primitive are capable of patriotism, pride in their cultural origins, or a commitment to universal humanism. To “not believe” could be considered a form of “belief” and many of both believers and secularists are educated intelligent people.

That’s my entire repertoire of metaphysics.

In reality more than two peoples do live in a integrated country. The Arab Israelis, the Israeli Jews, and the Israeli citizens who are neither. An Arab mayor, a few years ago, presented a petition to the Israeli authorities which contained somewhere in the vicinity of 165,000 signatures from people in his town who wanted to remain within Israel's borders. He was shot five times by a Palestinian, and barely survived. His name (from memory)was Hamdan. That incident got very little press coverage.

I’ll just go count to 42 now.

<I&#8217;m not very good at profound introspective philosophy but call it &#8220;God&#8221; or call it &#8220;Home&#8221; millions of people on the planet have an attachment to places from which they came or their ancestors, gods, or spirits originated.>


That is true. But that does not give anyone the legal right to occupy that same place/country/area. And in my oppinion claiming a "Godgiven Right" to a specific area is downright arrogant and oppressing.


Today, 30/4 2002, Ariel Sharon once again blocked the UN delegations entry to Israel. Kofi Annan says that the mission will probably have to be cancelled. This, I think, has been Sharons politics from the beginning; he does not want anyone to investigate what really happened in Jenin. If there was nothing to hide and everything was happy chocolate, the Israelis would have wellcomed an investigation into the matter. Again: Sharons goal, as stated by himself, is ethnic cleansing and the world are letting him do it without even raising it´s voice halfheartedly.
Some arab newspaper wrote that Colin Powell arrived in Israel as a general in the American army, and left as a footsoldier in Sharons army. That is true.

I have to say, that in my oppinion, everyone supporting Sharon at this stage is no better than the people who supported A.Hitler in 1939.
I know this is a statement that will offend a lot of people, but hopefully it will not get moderated, as I think this is very important to discuss. The man is a regular warcriminal still exercising his plans and he have to be stopped before he wrecks total havoc. Look at his tactics: He moves two steps further or takes an extreme political position and then when he´s critizised he moves one step back or loosens up a little on his rethoric. Then he waits some days and move two steps further and so on. Or in the case with the UN delegation, he accepts it under certain conditions after a few days and then postpones it some more and then refuses to have anything to do with it and block its work.The pattern is so obvious.


T´mershi Duween.

I agree. This is a subject well worth a discussion.

So a few points.

1. Sharon does not make unilateral decisions. The Knesset cabinet does. MK’s both Arab and Israeli do not automatically defer to the Prime Minister. These discussions are open to public scrutiny. (Except where they expand into certain areas of National Security – which is normal for all types of democratic governments) The UN Jenin inspection was a public discussion.

2. In addition to humanitarian inspectors, Israel requested Military Forensic Specialists. (Nash is now out – not sure why)
Two senior members of the UN inspection team have long histories of supporting Arafat.


3. A request that the UN team expand its inspection to include Israeli loss of life and damage to infrastructure – they indicated that they may be considering a lawsuit against the EU for (proxy) funding of terrorist activities. As a self declared non-partisan third party – a UN report would support such a claim in an International Court.

4. Israeli authorities became extremely concerned when a member of the International Red Cross team, an ex British Military Engineer who has had experience in Northern Ireland and other parts of the world, reported that the pipe bombs littering the Jenin site had all the hallmarks of the IRA. These types of bombs have also been surfacing in Colombia recently.

5. A forensics team member who was slated to be part of the team, Dr. Helena Ratna. This lady was complicit in the cover-up in the Balkans. Reporting a massacre of civilians, her report virtually gave the green light for the NATO strikes. A further forensics expert team proved that the “victims” were gunmen, who had died elsewhere in a gunfight, and whose bodies has been made to look like civilians and dumped in a mass grave. The UN sat on that report for two years until all the Balkans furore was over.

There is however, a wider question being asked of the UN, and not just by Israel.

Why are these camps here at all? Israel receives aid monies from the US. The Palestinian Authority receives aid monies from the US, the EU and the Arab countries.

International Law states that refugees can only be detained as refugees for a specific period of time. After that they must be returned to their country of origin - if safe to do so - or absorbed as citizens of their host countries. All the refugee camps are administered by the UN Humanitarian organizations and contain people who are second and third generation “refugees.” Why are Palestinians “refugees” in the Palestinian Areas? With all the millions given to Arafat's PA why are they not housed properly? Why is the UN allowing itself to become embroiled in the politics of the this region and not speaking out against the inadequate conditions of “captive people”(Who are obviously “captive” for manipulative political reasons) Why blame Israel for the UN and the Palestinian Authority’s inept administration?

The general concensus within Israeli circles, seems to be that this inspection should go ahead as it would clear up many doubts and misconceptions. But they will not be railroaded.

Who is watching the watchdogs? The UN Watch – I hope.

From the Guardian, Israel's conditions for the investigation were:

"· Military and terrorism experts should be made full members of the investigating team

· The Israeli government should decide who the investigators can talk to and which documents it can review

· The investigation should not reach any conclusions

· The evidence it gathers cannot be used in any war crimes prosecution

· The UN team must also examine the activities of Palestinian "terrorists" in the camp over recent months"

I don't see how the second, third and fourth of these conditions can be construed as anything other than an attempt to block an inquiry.

Those conditions are laughable.

Ste asked "... one huge question will be that of Jerusalem. Can you have one city that spans two nations? I'd be interested in peoples opinions on this city that is sacred to both sides (and, interestingly, the West of course)."

Istanbul, in Turkey - a city and a country that spans two continents! Turkey has its own troubles, of course, but those are not being related very loudly in Britain.

x x Fenny (UT)

I can quite understand the emotional force behind the argument of people wishing to return to what they consider was their country of origin, but if Australian descendents of people forcibly transported there generations ago who had maintained an English culture (whatever that is) claimed a right to return to the UK, I can imagine many people would think they had no justification for their claim.

As far as second or third generation Palestinian refugees are concerned, it's a difficult issue - if they move out of the camps and join the rest of the society, I suspect that some Israeli politicians would claim they had somehow given up any right of return, and I think that is the main reason they maintain their refugee status, despite the hardships.
If the argument that some Jews stayed in Israel while others were forcibly removed a long time ago, and hence had a right to move back is accepted, it seems that similar logic should be applied to the current refugees. While some have become involved in violent action, I suspect that most just want to go back to where they used to live, and live in peace.

On the terrorist/freedom fighter issue, neither side seems to have clean hands.
The only thing that seems clear, and which history has made pretty obvious in numerous places around the world, is that when two oppsoing sides indulge in revenge for acts against them, and consider their actions to be honourable, things can drag on for a long time solving nothing until one side either completely overwhelms the other (which doesn't seem like a defensible option), one or both sides come to their senses and try to make peace, or someone else steps in to try and bring order (which itself carries definite risks).

Thanks Zev for your explanation - it's the first time I've heard a reason for the cancellation of the UN Investigation. Can you explain the wording of the Guardian report detailed by Dogster?

Xanatic, your response is a clear result of bombardment of the war of words. Would you have called the conditions 'laughable' if you had only read EtherZev's points 2, 3, 4, and 5? Every article that is written can be interpreted differently depending on your initial opinion, and opinions are invariably coloured by the war of words.

T'mershi (post 44): there are occasions where I've seen, in print, Muslims declare their right to rule. And, just as a matter of interest, you could try typing "right to rule the world" into Google. Everyone seems to think they have one!

I don't agree with the current Israeli administration's policies - but I know that what I hear in the media is not the full story. I know as well (Zev, not everyone knows this, and it's worth repeating again and again) that the Palestinians, the oppressed underdogs, the "armed gunmen", are refugees because many Arab countries wouldn't welcome them. Not all non-Jews who were living in Palestine in 1948 became Palestinian refugees. Some became Arab-Israelis, full citizens. And some are villified as Collaborators.

My heart is bleeding for all the suffering. No matter the "72 Virgins", the blessings from heaven, the fact that children could be put in the way of bullets because it would send them to Paradise. No matter that every child-soldier who dies is a triumph for a war of words.

Did anyone else stop to think why all the Palestinian Gunmen ran into the Church of the Nativity? Why couldn't they choose the building next door? Was it to do with Sanctuary, or to do with Public Relations?

x x Fenny (probably too controversial, now, sorry)

For the record, I'm inclined towards a Peace-Keeping force. I don't know how well it would work; I am sure there are people on both sides who are manipulating public opinion in order to keep war inflamed. But it's been clear, for nearly two years, that near-peace is followed by another uprising. There are people working on both sides for peace - I'd love it to have a chance.

x x Fenny (always too optimistic)

Sure I would. The fifth one is the only that makes any sense.

Dogster,

9 of the 15 sitting members of the Security Council vetoed the Jenin probe.



No Government in the history of the UN's existence has permitted any inspection team to interrogate its military personnel, or its government records. Perhaps the US or the UK will allow investigations and interrogations on Afghanistan? I don’t think so.

<· The investigation should not reach any conclusions>

Legalese – means that they may produce a report on the facts, but not make a judgement, which is not within the UN Mandate anyway. Please do your own research.

<· The evidence it gathers cannot be used in any war crimes prosecution>

A case in point – Sabra & Shatilla – (opens a can of big, ugly worms)

The civil war in Lebanon, in which initially Israel was not involved, had a total death count of 100,000 Muslims and Christians. Arafat’s PLO established a mini-state of Terrorism in Lebanon. These Palestinians were the ones who had escaped from Jordan during the attempted Black September coup. King Hussein and his Bedouins massacred more than 10,000 Palestinians. All due to Arafat and friends’ failed overthrow of Hussein’s kingdom. Arafat broke 26 agreements with Jordan. Israel rescued thousands of escaping Palestinians from the Jordan River. Israeli intelligence knew that Arafat and his PLO were actively planning a war against Israel from Lebanon and had the weapons and means to commit major atrocities.

The Christian Phalange leader, Elie Hobeika, who was directly responsible for Sabra and Shatilla massacre, made a public statement shortly before he was due to give a witness statement to the Belgium court. His public statement made it quite clear that he assumed direct responsibility, and that Sharon knew nothing of the Phalangists intentions with regard to Sabra & Shatilla. Shortly afterwards he was assassinated. It was, of course, reported as an Israeli assassination by the Press. – Sharon and Israel arranged the killing of a key witness who could exonerate him in the Belgium Court. – Yea, sure!

Israel is not a lawless state, and its judicial systems compare favourably with other democratic nations. Sharon was punished according to Israeli Law.

International Law permits “anticipatory wars of self-defense” which was precisely what Israel fought in both Lebanon and more recently in the territories. Where was the UN investigation into Hussein’s direct responsibility for the killing of ten thousand Palestinians, or Arafat’s involvement (up to his Keffiyah) in the 100,000 Lebanese Muslim and Christian deaths. And again in Jenin.

Neither Sharon nor Israel will be the fallguy for Arafat the second time. Belgium – bah!

Fenny,

A very cynical personal observation concerning the Church of the Nativity. On his last visit to Jerusalem, the Pope, or more correctly the Vatican signed an agreement concerning Christian Holy Places in Jerusalem and Palestine. The Church of the Nativity falls under the jurisdiction of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchy. Rome and the East are not exactly kissing cousins. Hmm......

Hi EtherZev,

Here are a few statements which I'd like to hear your comments on (as you seem to know a bit about this and I'd like to hear a constructive argument). Whilst a few are poorly-remembered facts, most are opinions.

1) Israel was founded by terrorism.

2) Ariel Sharon admitted responsibility for the deaths of 200 (?) civilians during Lebannon and is thus a war criminal (was this what you were refering to above?). The current intifada was fanned (if not triggered) by Sharon visiting the holiest mosque in Jerusalem in the middle of Friday prayers in a deliberate act of provocation.

3) Israel treats its Arab population in much the same way as Apartheit-era South Africa treated its black population.

4) Israel has signed numerous agreements to cease further settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. Settling continues, despite the existing settlements being largely empty (60% full I think, very dodgy statistic from memory though).

And just in case anyone starts to think I'm pro one side, here's one for the rest of you;

5) Arabs living in Israel have more rights than Arabs living in most Arab nations. People have been 'disappeared' by the thousand in, say, Syria.

6) Just a note to those who have never been to the Middle East - the term 'refugee camp' to me conjures up images of tents and UN food handouts. I accidentally drove through a 'Palestinian Refugee Camp' while in Jordan on holiday. It had plumming, electricity, permanent houses, roads, parking spaces, shops, etc. and was indistinguishable from any other suburb.

7) In reply to a previous post - both Jordan and Egypt have recognised Israel for many years. I believe that Egypt cut off diplomatic links a week or two ago.

Gif