h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

ExeValleyBoy,

There were two other important Stannary Charters in addition to those of 1198 and 1201. Pennington (in “Stannary Law”) states:-

“The next important event of which there is documentary evidence was the grant by Edward I of the two great Charters of 1305, which defined the privileges of the miners of Cornwall and Devon respectively in the same terms. These charters were frequently confirmed by succeeding monarchs, and both charters were approved by Parliament in 1305 and 1349, but it would not appear that this gave them the force and effect of Acts of Parliament.

Each of the two Charters of 1305 begins by reciting that it was granted ‘for the emendation of the stannaries and for the tranquillity and benefit of our tinners of the same’, and each goes on to grant immunity from the jurisdiction of all manorial and royal courts to ‘all the said tinners working in the stannaries which are our demesne so long as they are working in the said stannaries’. Instead they are subjected to the jurisdiction of the warden of the stannaries ‘for all pleas and suits arising within the said stannaries except pleas of land, life and limb’.”

However, this was added to in a later part of the charters:-

“They provided that ‘our warden or his deputy [the Vice-Warden] shall hear all pleas arising between the said tinners and also [all pleas] between them and others foreign [to the stannary] concerning all trespasses, disputes and contracts made in the places where they work if such pleas similarly arise within the stannaries’, and that the warden should do justice between the parties ‘as it has hitherto been customary in the stannaries’.”

This latter part of the charters seems to contradict the earlier part, which singles out pleas of land, life and limb as being exceptions. This apparent anomaly seems to have given the lawyers something to argue about for centuries according to Pennington.

MineralMan,

According to Helen Harris ("Industrial Archaeology of Dartmoor"), Small quantities of tin ore were sent from Birch Tor and Vitifer mines for a time to South Wales, finally ceasing in 1939. This is confirmed by A.K. Hamilton Jenkin ("Mines of Devon - Volume 1: The Southern Area"), who also adds that "The outbreak of war caused this last working to be abandoned." (Reference: Broughton D.G. 'The Birch Tor and Vitifer Tin Mining Complex', Transactions of the Cornish Institute of Engineers, new series, Vol XXIV (1968-9), pp 25-49.)

Plymouth Exile

Many Thanks.

EVB is correct, the (Stannary) "charters" were not enacted with the prime motivation of protecting local custom and laws, but rather to protect the rights of taxation (and why would we be surprised by this fact??)

Nevertheless, the site EVB refers to is an interesting one, for it refers to rights that existed before the Devonian and Cornish Stannaries were split into two bodies in the 13th century.

Clearly the evidence suggests that (as no distiction is drawn between east and west of the Tamar that) the Devonian and Cornish rights were considered as equivalent until well after the Norman invasion.

EVB's sources suggests that the various 'stannary charters' do little more than reinforce local tinners rights and customs because (in effect) the purpose was to create (or confirm) a source of wealth for the Crown, and that the real intent of the legislation is to benefit the authorities (eg the Crown or its descendants) because of the ensuing taxation.

Although the authority of the Devonian and Cornish Stannary Parliaments were never officially extinguished, the rights of their courts were (arguably) merged in 1855 and later those powers were transferred to the respective County Councils in 1896. However the (remaining) rights of the Devon and Cornish authorities have never been revoked.

However, as EVB points out, legislation has never been to "create" these rights, but at best to reference them, and at worst to exploit them.

In reality this situation is little different to the initiation of the "Duchy of Cornwall" some 100+ years later in 1337.

Clearly the Duchy of Cornwall was not enacted with the intention of providing for the rights of the "natives". At best it was to preserve those rights, but with the ultimate benefit going to the English Crown.

According to the current "Duchy of Cornwall" site, its purpose was as follows, that "The Duchy estate was created in 1337 by Edward III for his son and heir, Prince Edward, and its primary function was to provide him and future Princes of Wales with an income from its assets. A charter ruled that each future Duke of Cornwall would be the eldest surviving son of the Monarch and the heir to the throne."

Obviously this has little (if anything) to do with legislating for or preserving the rights of local people, but rather is a simple "revenue collection exercise" for the benefit of the heir to the English crown.

Further, if you look at the "Duchy of Cornwall" site (below) a number of points are obvious.

http://www.duchyofcornwall.org/aroundtheduchy.htm

The Duchy actually claims only a small parts of Cornwall, apart from its waters, and it manages its estate in five nominated areas : The Isles of Scilly (apparently separate from Cornwall), Western [Devon and Cornwall], Eastern [Dorset, Somerset, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire], and London. It does does even devote a specific section of its management solely to its Cornish estates!

The "waters" authority also extend well beyond Cornwall's borders - to include the "Dart, Salcombe and Kingsbridge, Avon and Tamar".

The Duchy's own website image focusses on Plymouth waters.

http://www.duchyofcornwall.org/aroundtheduchy_thewaters.htm

It may be noted that the Duchy claims ownership of only 2% of Cornwall.

http://www.duchyofcornwall.org/faqs.htm

It is also interesting to note that The Duchy does not have any right to spend any capital appreciation of its assets, although it can spend its income.

It may be argued that the current Duke of Conwall (obviously - Charles) is doing little or nothing to support the claims that could be made above and beyond these limited boundaries. Perhaps another incumbent would do more???

The Duchy's site does have a (single) page in Cornish (which I personally see as a positive step, as none existed until recently), although the content differs little from the English version.

Ozzie Exile,

Thanks for recognizing the point I was trying to make.

The 1198 and 1201 charters repeatedly mention Devon and Cornwall, rather than each place separately, the only exception being passages relating to the separate weighing systems used in the two places.

The word ‘ancient’ crops up in the 1198 and 1201 charters no less than eight times in relation to the special privileges of the miners. The start of the 13th century is ancient from our perspective. So what constituted ‘ancient’ to government officials of 800 years ago? At the very least we can go back 200 years to the time of the Norman Conquest. But in 1201 that was hardly an ‘ancient’ event; no more than the reign of King George III would be considered ‘ancient’ today.

Given that English rule had been peripheral in Cornwall prior to the Norman conquest, this raises the question whether the original Stannary parliament was created during Saxon times, or whether it actually predated the arrival of the English in Cornwall. Given the known history of tin mining on Dartmoor and in Cornwall, it is certainly possible the special rights discussed in the charters of 1198 and 1201 were descended from something of far greater antiquity.

While the charters formalized extant and ancient mining privileges only so the English state could have total control over the mining revenues, this is not to say the original unwritten privileges and rights were necessarily unjustified or exploitative. It is highly likely they were of local origin and antique provenance. Tin miners and tin mining were special. They had given people in Cornwall and Devon access to wealth and to the wider world for centuries before the Roman Empire even existed. Rome rarely ventured west of Exeter and just bought the tin. The Saxons were good settlers and farmers but knew nothing of mining so they left the tin miners alone.

In this dawn of the ‘British’ empire we see, through these charters, the greedy little Plantagenet state—desperately needing the cash to fund its futile wars against Scotland and Wales and equally pointless crusades—extending its political control over this highly respected, and by old and informal agreement, traditionally independent industry.

EVB

You have a point, when the charters generally refer to "ancient" in English law they are refering to a time before "time immemorial". Because of the upheavals caused by the wars between Stephen and Matilda a legal point zero was re set at the start of the reign of Richard I. Events prior to that point were refered to as since time immemorial or ancient.

And you are right the Plantagenet state was greedy. The date of 1198 (last full year of Richard "I would sell London if I could find a bidder fich enough" the first) is significant. A man who viewed his realm simply as a treasury to be plundered to hold together his empire in France. It has been noted that if the conquest hadn't happened the relationship between the Anglo Saxon state and it's neighbours in Wales, Scotland and Ireland would have been different. By 1066 the Anglo Saxon state had settled into relative peace and prosperity showing little signs of aggression. Cornwall would also have had a different position in the Anglo Saxon state, it was already part of the English Realm well before 1066, but may have retained real autonomy.

Also all states regulate, control or give freedoms to any sector in society when they can make money from them. Every type of state from the most liberal to the most totalitarian does the same, beit it fund wars or give tax cuts to those who will keep them in power.

However it was during the Plantagenet dynasty that the seeds of our parliamentary democracy (De Monfort, the Magna Carta) were sown.

Personally I would say with regards Stannaries, there must have been something there before the charters dating either to Anglo Saxon rule or before in both counties that the crown decided to formalise.

“Personally I would say with regards Stannaries, there must have been something there before the charters dating either to Anglo Saxon rule or before in both counties that the crown decided to formalise.”

Tivvyboy,

Pennington (for his book “Stannary Law”) investigated this aspect and stated:-

“No documentary or literary evidence remains of the organisation of mining in Cornwall and Devon during the pre-Roman, Roman, Celtic and Anglo-Saxon periods, and no firm conclusions can be reached from the few archaeological remains that have been discovered.”

It would seem that the earliest surviving records of tin coinage date back to the period 1156 to 1160, when the coinage from both Devon and Cornwall was collected by Richard de Tracy, Sheriff of Devon. The coinage in Cornwall was collected separately for the first time in 1177.

From these earliest records, Pennington concludes that Stannary Law: “was different in many important respects from the Anglo-Saxon mining law in operation in other parts of the country, such as the Wirksworth and High Peak districts of Derbyshire.”

Plymouth Exile

Thanks for your comments. "Time Immemorial" is a legalese term just that after the strains of the 12th century they were drawing a line and saying if it existed on that day it was law for where legal documentation was scant.

In the peninsular we were generally lucky that the civil war passed us by but much of England was not so lucky. But the Stannary Law of Devon and Cornwall would have been protected by the "since time immemorial" formula.

On a much more trivial note, it appears that the Devon Flag will appear a brief "reality TV" profile.

One of the contestants in a "Da Vinci Code" reality show (??) hails from Torrington, and in one episode she will sport a Devon Flag.

Good on her.

Although no-one should get too worked up about a "reality show" this is yet another indication about the adoption of the Devon Flag.

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=141529&command=displayContent&sourceNode=141513&contentPK=16380206&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch

And (for the benefit of Fulub) I do acknowledge that Mairianne isn't a cartoon character in the Simpsons and therefore can't be taken as seriously !!!!???? Serioulsy!!!

Well there you go a new map of the foreshore of the Duchy: http://www.duchyofcornwall.org/aroundtheduchy.htm

Seems to be alot of "Cornish" foreshore owned by the Duke!

Ozzie Exile,

Do you think you are funny?

It seems bureaucracy has had a momentary lapse of sanity.

It has decided that "emblems" such as the Devon or Cornish Flags CAN be flown without planning permission.

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=141507&command=displayContent&sourceNode=201813&home=yes&more_nodeId1=201752&contentPK=16896476

According to the WMN you should keep an eye out for the Union and Devon Flags being flown from Tiverton Town Hall, after town councillors voted last week to endorse a display of patriotism. At the meeting of the town council on Monday, September 17, Cllr Ken Gilderthorp tabled a motion that both flags be flown from the town hall at all times.

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=141529&command=displayContent&sourceNode=141513&contentPK=18475636&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch

Tivvyboy should be pleased!

Tivvyboy is pleased! Tiverton leading the way for Devon!

Tivvyboy

Tis good to see, I'm pleased as well, hope there will be more councils following the same idea. Sorry, I haven't had an entry for a spell, I have been away visiting relatives in Australia.

Some things seem to go full circle.

Looking at vision of Devon's victory over Somerset last weekend in the Bill Beaumont Cup (County Championship) I noticed that both the match and warm up jumpers now sport (pun intended) a small Devon Flag on the back.

The colours of Devons Rugby team may have been one of the inspirations for the colours of the flag designs.

The match - a narrow victory, but a win!

..and Devon have won through to Twickenham for the fifth straight year to defend its title - against Yorkshire on June 1st.

Incidentally you can buy replica Devon Rugby strip (with flag on the back) and Devon supporters t-shirt from www.lovellrugby.co.uk. I have purchased both and I am very happy with them.

You can also buy Cornish strip if you are that way inclined - but interestingly I don't think I saw any other 'county' having their strip available for sale - let alone a supporters strip as well.

And it seems that the Flag is being adopted by Councils Devon wide.

The attached links show Crediton and North Devon Council taking up the cause.



http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=141529&command=displayContent&sourceNode=141513&contentPK=20507805&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=141529&command=displayContent&sourceNode=141513&contentPK=20550940&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch

Ozzie Exile,

It is certainly good to see the increased use of the Devon Flag.

On a recent visit to Dartmoor I went into the tourist information office in Ashburton and found numerous Devon Flag related items there. Strangely enough the guy behind the counter was unaware of the history of the flag and did not know that it had been designed by a student from Ashburton. He did however confirm that Devon Flag merchandise was selling well.

Ozzie Exile wrote:

"It may be noted that the Duchy claims ownership of only 2% of Cornwall"

In England including Devonshire when you but land in fact you buy the rights to inhabit for a period of time but you never truly own the land this is the right of the Crown.

In Cornwall, the territory of, yup you guessed it; it's the right of the Duke.