h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

BBC Devon has a number of photograph 'galleries' and has just released another 'gallery' based on pictures of the Devon Flag being flown around the world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/content/image_galleries/flag_1_gallery.shtml

This follows on from an ealier galley - and a link to other photographs submitted in even earlier days.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/discovering/devon_flag/new/set1/01.shtml

Quite amazing that the flag has been flown so far and so wide!!

I was pleased to see the Devon flag being officially flown in Babbacombe, as shown in the BBC gallery, on a visit to Torquay a couple of months ago. There is also a Cornish flag being flown.

These pictures of people enjoying the flag and flying it stand in contrast to the array of sour remarks about it I recently read on the BBC flag message board.

The flag has Celtic connotations, particularly its dedication to St Petrock, but you do not need to be interested in the subject of Celtic Devon to appreciate the flag or fly it. St Petrock may be a Celtic saint, but the main point of the dedication is, surely, the many churches in Devon dedicated to St Petrock, and the fact that St Petrock spent so much time in Devon.

If some people choose to fly the Devon flag in preference to the English, it may be because the English flag was invented in a region of France and dedicated to a saint who never once set foot in the British Isles. There is also the fact that the St George flag was rarely seen flying in England, except on church towers, until the early 1990s when football created a fad for it.

This flag retailer shows all the other British national and regional flags.

http://www.flag-net.com/display_product_category.asp?id=96&view=paged&page=1

As this shows, Devon is not alone in seeking a banner for itself. The North of England and the Scilly Isles have recently designed flags. Note that the Northern England one, and the new alternative Yorkshire flag, have the St George flag in a Scandinavian format to represent the region’s nordic Viking heritage. Some might argue that this is undermining ‘Englishness’ too.

Exevalleyboy,

The BBC Flag message board certainly seems to attract some very strange responses. No matter how many times you point out that the Devon Flag is for ALL Devonians, regardless of their personal interests or beliefs, there still seems to be an endless stream of odd-ball posters, who either claim that it only represents one area of Devon, or that they want to claim it as the exclusive property of people who have the same beliefs as they do. A guy from Crediton wanted to dedicate the flag to St. George and England. Interestingly, he initially had no objection to the St. Petroc dedication, until he discovered that Petroc was Celtic. Why he didn’t just fly the St. George’s Flag and have done with it I do not know.

I have also noted that whenever Cornish detractors post messages they always seem to be the same basic format. They always start by claiming that Devonians have stolen the St. Piran Flag (despite the design and colour scheme being different), they then accuse us of being advocates of “Devonwall”, and end by suggesting that we have only invented the flag to try to disrupt Cornwall’s political separatist aspirations. These messages are all so alike, that I cannot help being suspicious that the Cornish Nationalists have issued a basic template to be used by their followers for this purpose. These Cornish activists seem to think that Cornwall is the only area in England that is entitled to its own flag.

>>These Cornish activists seem to think that Cornwall is the only area in England that is entitled to its own flag.<<

They don't think Cornwall is an area in England at all.

Plymouth Exile

I agree! The Devon flag as voted for, when I found out about the vote it was too late, would not have been my first or second choice. But it was the one voted for and I am the proud owner of three! (One above my computer as we speak, one on my desk at work). It is my flag, the flag of my county and I am proud to fly it as it were, and say "that is Devon's flag, that is my flag."

If the ultra nationalists across the Tamar think it is too similar to Cornwall's proud flag (and I agree it isn't) imitation is a sign of flattery. How many flags in the world carry France's colours (Czech Republic, Slovenia etc) or ordering (Ireland, Italy, Belgium)our of imitation of the French flag. And how many figures in France on the extremes of politics wrap themselves in the tricolore even when espousing exactly the opposite opinion of what the flag stands for, the French Republican tradition of "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité". Or even the extremists wrapping themselves in the stars and stripes forgetting the founding fathers of America's wish to have a country with liberty and justice for all? And the number of flags carrying the UKs colours. Or even the Union Flag itself.

Nyxlas, you too have a point. The ultras forget that Cornwall has been part of the English realm for 1000 years. And by and large all but the extremist nationalists in Cataluña, Galicia and País Vasco in Spain recognise they are (at the moment at least) part of Spain, even if they refer to the Spanish State (Estado Español) rather than Spain (España).

ExeValleyBoy, in Orkney and Shetland you will also see the colours of the Scottish Saltire arranged in the form of a Scandinavian cross.

Personally I believe that the flag is not a "Celtic" flag for Devon, nor an "Anglo-Saxon" flag either. It is a Devon flag for Devon, pure and simple. And why not give it a patron saint? No one has a monopoly on the saints, not even Pope Benedict. Patrick came from Cumbria, David from Ireland, Andrew was Jewish (Israel) and George if he existed was from Anatolia (modern Turkey). So I can accept it as St Petroc's cross without a qualm. So hoist the flag high and let it fly with pride for Devon, the Devonian people and all those who want to make God's Own Acre a better place for ALL Devonians.

I'll go before this turns into a party political broadcast!

Until next time!

tb

The Scilly Isles adopted a new flag in 2002.

http://www.scillynews.co.uk/php/style2.php?s=scilly&a=scilly/flag.html

Whether the Scilly Isles are English or not, or for that matter Cornish, was not even considered. Like Devon, the Scilly Isles opted for a Celtic format. Very few people in Devon or the Scilly Islands would want to make the flags symbols of nationalism; but what they say is a desire to assert difference and to acknowledge history.

Regarding Nxylas’s point.

As TivvyBoy points out Cornwall has been an established part of England for over 1,000 years. If the nationalists in Cornwall want to alter that political fact then they first have to get themselves elected.

I believe it is time that the Cornish people were asked whether or not they want to remain in England. This means holding a vote on the issue. Cornwall should not become a separate nation in the UK just because of some arcane constitutional arrangement from the middle ages, but because the people there clearly express a desire to leave England. This England-or-not debate regarding Cornwall has been going on for decades, and is going absolutely nowhere. Various individuals, on both sides of the argument, regularly state what they think Cornwall should be; using law, history, etc. but what nobody does is just ask the Cornish people what they actually want.

A vote on Cornwall’s political status need not be official. Even a privately run referendum, done say by Mebyon Kernow, would provide some indication of popular sentiment.

This is relevant, albeit tenuously, to the Devon flag debate, in that if there was some indication of Cornwall’s real desires, nationalist activists in Cornwall would have no reason at all to attack Devon’s tentative exploration of its own identity and Celtic heritage. The fact is that they know, electorally, they are not verified in their own backyard, and see things like Devon’s flag as a threat. Discovering Cornwall’s real opinion on its own status would either give them the confidence to concentrate on Cornwall and its possible new and exciting role, or if the vote went the other way, suggest that they might need to seriously review the arguments they have been making for the past 50 years.

ExeValleyBoy,

As TivvyBoy has pointed out, there is a big difference between Devon’s desire to express its Celtic heritage and individuality, and Cornish Nationalism. This difference is reflected in the use to which the respective flags are put.

I agree with you that Cornish separatism should be put to the test in a referendum of the Cornish people, but there are two good reasons why the separatists would be loathe to participate in such a test of public opinion.

Firstly, the Mebyon Kernow share of the votes at elections would seem to indicate that votes in favour would be embarrassingly low, especially as many of Cornwall’s current population are recent arrivals from outside the South West. These newcomers like living in Cornwall, but would be unlikely to want to live in a Cornwall, which was not part of the British state.

Secondly, the so-called ‘constitutional arrangements from the middle Ages’ to which you refer, are not all that the separatists would like us to believe they are. The much touted ‘Athelstan’s Settlement’ is pure fiction, there being no documentary evidence for it. The ‘CHARTER OF March 17, 1337 (Creating the Duchy of Cornwall.), which reputedly states that Cornwall is separate from England, does no such thing. The definition it gives for the Duchy is very much the same as the present day understanding of what the Duchy is. They try to get around this obstacle by claiming that there was a previous document (now conveniently lost), which preceded the Charter, and made it clear that the Duchy was to be coterminous with the County of Cornwall, and separate from England. It would be very strange if a document, which immediately preceded the Charter, expressed totally different provisions from the Charter itself. This looks like yet more fiction.

Cornish separatists sometimes cling to one part of the Duchy Charter, which makes provision for Cornish tinners to claim the right to extract tin wherever they find it in Cornwall, and as tin extraction comes under the jurisdiction of the Duchy (via the Cornish Stannaries), they claim that this is tantamount to saying that all of Cornwall (where Cornish tinners have the right to extract tin) comes under Duchy jurisdiction. There is one huge obstacle to this claim, in that exactly the same provision applies to the Devon tinners in Devon, as the Devon Stannaries also come under the jurisdiction of the Duchy. But of course, there is no way that the Cornish separatists are going to admit that the whole of Devon could also be a part of the Duchy.

I have concluded that the Cornish separatists secretly love being a protest movement, and if ever their bluff was called and they were offered real power, they just wouldn’t know where to turn. They rely on the near certainty that this will never happen.

Plymouth Exile,

Interesting stuff, particularly about the Devon Stannaries being under Duchy of Cornwall jurisdiction. I went to the Duchy’s website to find out more about it, and was quite surprised by what I found.

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/about/duc_index.html

This is not a ‘country’ being defined here; it is a private fiefdom to provide a massive income for the Prince of Wales!

“The Duchy of Cornwall's main purpose is to cover the cost of the heir apparent’s public and private life.”

Half of the Duchy estate is actually in Devon, on Dartmoor, and the rest is in Cornwall and 25 other counties.

Although this does not seem to be mentioned on the Duchy website, the estate also includes the land that the Oval cricket ground is built on, and 45 acres of prime real estate in Kennington, south London.

http://www.vauxhallsociety.org.uk/Duchy.html

I wonder how many affordable homes for Cornish families that 45 acres of south London would pay for?

ExeValleyBoy,

If you are interested in the Duchy Charter of 1337, it can be found in Jim Pengelly’s “Tyr Gwyr Gweryn” website/rant. It is buried away in one of the side topic links on the left hand side. He only placed it there because he was challenged to do so. I don’t think he wants too many people to read it, because it doesn’t back up the separatist’s argument about the ‘real’ nature of the Duchy. Far from stating that Cornwall is a separate nation, it clearly refers to the "County" of Cornwall as being in "England". It also outlines many other parts of the Duchy estate throughout England, together with the Devon and Cornwall Stannaries.

The translation on TGG certainly doesn't seem to do much to further the Cornish 'seperate nationhood' argument.

The reference to "County" may need some qualification, as the header suggests that it appears as the translation for the latin "Comitatus", which (according to the following link) can have a more personal form - loyalty to a particular person.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:COMITATUS

However, whatever form was used it would appear that the same term was applied to all counties - including the 8 references to Devon.

I did note that the claims in Devon go well beyond the Stannary - for example to the "prisages and customs of wines in the water of Sutton, in the same county of Devon". So there goes the theory that the inclusion of Devon only relates to the tin industry.

I wonder what Charles gets from "the prisages and customs of wines in the water of Sutton" today??

Interestingly Jim Pengelly's site also gives reference to the following quote

According to professor Sir Keith Feiling "A History of England" (1st Edition 1950) :

"By the end of Edgar's reign, the shire system had been extended from the south over all England, except for the distant and half-independent regions which were later to make Lancashire, Cumberland, Westmorland and Northumberland. In Wessex this division had taken root, it seems, before Alfred's death ; some were old kingdoms like Kent, some like Berkshire the endowment of a royal prince, others a conquered land like Devon."

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kernow_tgg/County1.html

Now, our Jim doesn't like this, and goes to lengths to suggest that Devon should be described as 'misappropriated Cornish land'!!

Perhaps Jim would like us to doff our Devonian hats in his general direction?

Incidentally, what Jim doesn't refer to (rather surprisingly) is that Feiling's definition of the extent of the shire system would seem to include Cornwall.

Ozzie Exile,

I doubt whether Charles would get rich from ‘prisages and customs of wines’ these days, but if some enterprising businessman decided to build a jetty or wharf in Sutton Harbour (or anywhere else in Devon) for the importation of wine (or anything else), he would need to get permission from Charles before doing so:-

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1992/Uksi_19922902_en_4.htm

It is strange how the Cornish separatists claim that Cornwall is not a part of England, because its foreshore and riverbeds come under the jurisdiction of the Duchy of Cornwall, unlike foreshores and riverbeds in England. So there you have it; it looks as if Devon has been expelled from England, or been hijacked by the Duchy of Cornwall. What do we intend to do about this?

Please don’t tell Jim Pengelly about this. The poor fellow may have a heart attack. Sorry, I forgot, I have already told him, and he didn’t like it one little bit.

Ozzie Exile,

The definition of 'Comitatus' includes:-

"The term describes the tribal structure of the Anglo-Saxons and other Germanic tribes."

Hasn't Jim Pengelly shot himself in the foot if he claimes that the original term in the Charter describing Cornwall was 'Comitatus', as this would imply that the Cornish were a Germanic tribe, and not Celts after all?

Having read Tyr Gwyr Gweryn I can appreciate some of the points Pengelly made about Cornwall’s cultural identity, but the Duchy arrangement is not exclusive to Cornwall.

There is another Duchy; that of Lancaster, which seems to have arisen in a similar way to the Duchy of Cornwall and performs a similar role today as a lucrative portfolio of properties.

http://www.duchyoflancaster.org.uk/

The Duchy of Lancashire is also incorporated as a ‘county palatine’.

http://www.duchyoflancaster.org.uk/output/page14.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_palatine

Note that Durham and Cheshire also once held this special status.

“Cheshire had its own parliament, consisting of barons of the county, and was not represented in the Parliament of England until 1541, while it retained some of its special privileges until 1830. The earldom of Chester is traditionally vested in the Sovereign’s eldest son upon his crowning as Prince of Wales.”

Not only did Cheshire have semi-autonomous status, but its own parliament too. Imagine what some would have made of that had it once applied to Cornwall!

I can see what Pengelly means about the mispronunciation of Cornish place names;

“because of ignorance of what the Cornish names actually means, the meaning of the name becomes changed.”

He complains that Liskeard and Tideford are mispronounced. But this is not an exclusively Cornish issue. Bideford and Bridestow in Devon both have the emphasis on the “e” and are subject to mispronunciation. In the case of Bridestow the name originates from St Brigid, of Ireland, to whom the village church is dedicated. So it is actually Brigid-Stow, and nothing to do with a “bride” as some “furreners” might think!

http://www.devon.gov.uk/etched?url=etched/ixbin/hixclient.exe&_IXP_=1&_IXR=100456

The same applies to the village of Poughill in Devon. Most visitors see the name and think it is Poug-Hill, meaning Poug’s hill. It is actually pronounced Poyle, as one word.

For Pengelly, in relation to Cornwall, the mispronunciation and misinterpretation of place names becomes;

“A microcosm of the story of Cornwall! A created paradox born out of an immaculate deception. A deception of high-level lies from the top down and a tutored ignorance of Cornwall from the bottom up...”

Pengelly’s melodrama of ‘deception’ and elsewhere ‘genocide’ does nothing to further the cause of Cornish self-government and cultural heritage. The greatest threat to Cornwall today comes from something more prosaic, and that is lack of decent-paid work and affordable housing. Whether Cornwall is an independent Duchy or not, whether all the placenames are given neat new heritage signs with Cornish spellings, will make no difference. I am sure the second home owners and wealthy retirees love the “quaint” Cornish names of their once-a-year cottages and villages!

Plymouth Exile,

The Transports and Works Regulation you referenced certainly show Devon and Cornwall as having the same requirements, and also supports EVB's comments on the apparent equal standing of the Duchy of Lancaster.

http://www.duchyoflancaster.org.uk/output/Page1.asp

The only difference today is that I think the Duke of Lancaster is the Queen. If so this is not the only 'gender bending' title as I believe she is also "Lord of Man" (ie IoM).

With regards to the word "Comitatus" reflecting Anglo Saxon/Germanic tribal structure I know you made the comment in jest, but I guess we should acknlowledge that this reflects the perception of English Royalty at the time - rather than local perceptions.

Putting aside the recent criticism of the TGG site (lest AcrobaticTinman returns) and returning to an earlier topic...

It seems the Devon County Council included a question in its recent questionnaire asking whether there should be official recognition of the Devon Flag (Question 20).

The response was

Strongly in favour 22.5%
In favour 29.9%
Total in favour 52.4%

Strongly against 8.8%
Against 14.8%
Total against 23.6%

No opinion 24.0%

http://www.devon.gov.uk/cs13_results_for_website-2.pdf

It seems there is strong support for official recognition for the flag!

Devon County Council's survey show there is strong popular support for the flag.

Some sour commentators have argued that it is an irrelevance foisted on Devon by an eccentric fringe group.

These figures prove they are wrong.

This response should encourage DCC to use the Devon flag in its own material, and to endorse the flag for use on county buildings if there is support for it.

Yes yes; those terrible Cornish nationalists always trying to undermine Devons history, never satisfied even when their language is recognised as a UK minority language and awarded 80,000 K (plus EU top up) eqch year for three years. Can't they see they have a language as well as a flag as well as other cultural phenomena. Honestly, how can some amature Devon historians, who are well meaning enough, dammage that even if they wanted to?

FulupleBreton/AcrobaticTinman,

Welcome back.

I don't believe anyone on this site has any issues with the recognition of the Cornish language, nor any of Cornwall's culture.

Our only issue has been with people who misrepresent Devon - either through ignorance or deliberate intent.

Does the Cornish language really get 80,000 K (ie £80million??) plus EU top up each year. That would be about £160+ per Cornishman/woman.

I think he meant 80K.