h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The national flag of Cornwall is the centuries old St Piran's cross. This icon, together with Cornish history, language and culture, is recognised as being alternative to, and competing with, corresponding facets of the English identity. A Devon flag arrived three years ago and now Somerset wants one too. Perhaps it is time to examine recent events in more detail.

When it comes to examining circumstances surrounding the creation of a flag for Devon, two features stand out as warranting further investigation. Firstly, why should the supposedly non-political, non-partisan, BBC take such a pro-active role in creating and promoting the flag? Secondly, although the flag is said to be non-political, with one promoter disarmingly describing it as "a simple, honest flag" [WMN July 26th 2006], evidence to the contrary leads many to question this.

The idea for a Devon Flag came from Australian-dwelling Paul Turner in a 24th June 2002 BBC h2g2 Internet chatroom proposal to Lancashire's Bob Burns. Previous to this, both men had been discussing their wish to create a Devon Celtic movement to rival that of the Cornish. On the day the proposal was made, a BBC employee, who had been monitoring the dialogue, contacted both men to suggest that the BBC would be willing to host a competition to design the flag. At the same time the BBC suggested that Burns and Turner might like to adopt pseudonyms during web debate.

Now using names like Aberplym and Dartmoor Celt, Burns and Turner went on to discuss the problem of getting publicity for their Celtic Devon initiative. On August 23 2002 the same BBC employee notified them that a BBC hosted flag voting page was up and running, and that the BBC was looking for someone to come onto BBC regional television to talk about the need for a Devon flag.

With the help of the BBC the Devon flag is now fully established. Numerous purpose built BBC websites now vigorously promote and market the flag and pro-active BBC staff can often be observed interjecting into private BBC web room discussions to notify contributors where the flag can be purchased. BBC Southwest was the first public authority to fly the flag at the 2003 Devon County Show and BBC online Editor Jonathan Duffy states that the BBC will not be happy until every sandcastle in Devon has a Devon Flag on top!

On 4th June 2004 it was reported that the Devon Flag is to be associated with St Petroc [WMN]. It was said that the flags mystic quality arose after Dartmouth's Kevin Pyne attributed his 2003 recovery from a serious illness to St Petroc. The Devon Flag website simply states that the flag was dedicated to St Petroc following a "personal request". It was therefore a hidden blessing for Mr Pyne that Mr Turner's earlier 24 June 2002 chatroom proposal to create a Devon flag also included the suggestion that the flag be dedicated to St Petroc.

Messrs Turner, Burns and Pyne are founder members of the "non-political" Devon Flag Group [DFG]. Mr Pyne regularly writes to local papers denuding Cornish distinctiveness and promoting his idea that the 'westcountry' should be unified. Burns and Turner are avid contributors to various web-based discussion groups. Their postings reveal that both want political devolution for Devon, but accept that a more realistic option is to call for a 'four county' region based on the 2000 year old extinct Celtic province of Dumnonia. To this end, DFG members are actively and vigorously disassociating Devon from its immediate English heritage. They are also engaged in the process of denuding Cornish distinctiveness whilst simultaneously highlighting, in a selective way that is often creative, ancient cultural ties with Celtic Cornwall and part of Somerset.

Turner has devised various Celtic orientated websites that not only portray the people of Devon as victims of a "suppressed" history and culture, but also equates their situation to that which existed in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. His websites highlight racial differences like black hair and discuss genetic theory to 'prove' that real Devonians are a different breed to the Saxon/English. Those enthused both by Burns's chat room rhetoric and Turner's websites speak of "Celtic Devon rising from Saxon Ashes", and of Devon gaining admission into the Celtic Congress and Celtic League of Nations.

Bob Burns is on record as denuding the integrity of the English Flag. One reason for his dismissive attitude towards the Cross of St George is the fact that the Saint was not born in England. Yet Turner's proposal that the Devon Flag be associated with the non-English born St Petroc was accepted by the DFG.

Remarkably, the Saxon St Boniface, who was actually born in Devon and is described by historians as being "the greatest Englishman of his time", escaped the group's attention. When it comes to dedicating the flag to a cause, some might ask why the previously pro-active BBC stood by as two or three people set themselves up as sole arbitrators.

In his various web-based discussions Burns rejects out of hand any evidence indicating that Devon was an English shire, or that Devon was ever an integral part of Saxon Wessex. Documents like the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Burghal Hideage, Assers Life of Alfred and The Laws of William the Conqueror, which all reveal historic cultural and political differences between Celtic Cornwall and Saxon England, are summarily dismissed.

When asked, Burns and Turner decline to describe themselves as English, preferring instead to label themselves Devonian, British. To gain wider acceptance for their stance, both men are actively inventing, and promoting as if it had some genuinely attestable historical foundation, a 'Devon language'.

Validation for their actions comes from the highly speculative utterings of one Joseph Biddulph, a publisher who guesses what languages might have been like prior to the coming of the English. Hence Biddulph's supposed re-creations of Mercian, Northumbrian and Danelaw Danish. In 1987 Biddulph asserted that something called 'South West Brythonic' might be created by taking bits from both English influenced Cornish and French influenced Breton. He then suggests that it can be given a Devon flavour by incorporating local place name suffixes like Cott and Combe, which, incidentally, are much in evidence beyond Devon.

This was all Turner needed to create the 'Devon Language' brand, uplift a website and on it claim, without providing any justification, that the likes of Pennycomequick in Plymouth is actually Celtic, and that the supposed 2000 year old 'Devon language' was spoken well into the Middle Ages. Although Turner's Xmas 'Biddulpian' greeting for 2004 was a random mix of Cornish and Breton, enthusiasts now speak of getting 'the Devon language' into schools in Devon.

The fact that Biddulph describes himself as a mere publisher is conveniently overlooked by Turner, whose various website describe Biddulph as a linguist. Also overlooked is the fact that Biddulph speculates that his 'South West Brythonic' existed from the Tamar to Berkshire. Biddulph himself provides no evidence to indicate why his 'language' would not have been spoken in Cornwall, which was an integral part of Dumnnonia, and Turner gives no reason as to why his random extrapolations should be called exclusively Devonish.

Perhaps the situation is best summed up by the fact that online, self-edited, encyclopaedia Wikipedia rejected Turners first attempt to have the 'Devon language', or Biddulphian, referenced within it. This followed academic claims that it was a 'conlang' like Klingon. Only after linguists became worn down by Burns and Turner conducting an unforgiving and repetitive onslaught did Wikipedia finally accept Turners revised entry. For those interested, the whole debate is archived on the site. Wikipedia does inform, however, that conlangs, or constructed languages, "are associated with constructed worlds".

The reason this information is brought to your attention is twofold:

Firstly, the BBC has made no effort to promote the proposed Somerset Flag, does nothing to publicise or promote the ancient Cornish flag but adopts an almost fanatical approach to a Devon Flag. BBC licence payers should therefore be aware of what the BBC is doing with their money. For instance, some might call for parity of treatment, while others may wish to ask the BBC whether or not engendering, promoting and advertising embryonic separatist ideas and products conforms to the spirit of the BBC Charter and other guidelines.

Secondly, those who conceived of, and now promote, the Devon Flag should reveal their true political and cultural allegiances. Then those who choose to purchase and fly the Devon flag can make their own judgement as to where autonomy ends and nationalism begins.

Fulup,

I have seen that article on the 'thisisdevon' website.

Some obvious responses - and there are many more errors that could be addressed - include

1 BBC Devon has never "suggested that Burns and Turner might like to adopt pseudonyms during web debate". This is a complete and utter fabrication.

2 In contradiction to the statement made, the BBC have taken an interest in the Somerset Flag. As recently as 26 August 2006 BBC News West ran a TV news feature on the Somerset Flag. Edd Woods was involved.

http://www.somersetflag.com/main.html

The BBC have also been involved in a poll for a flag for Lincolnshire.

To top it off the BBC Cornwall features the Cornish flag on its website - so the author is clearly wrong and this point is totally in error.

3 The inference seems to be that because both Bob and I currently reside outside of Devon that somehow diminishes the value of our point of view. You of all people must see the foolishness of this statement - as you are one of the more active internet proponents on on all things Cornish, but living as you do in Paris (75011).

4 The Devon Flag is non-political. The fact that SOME of those that were involved in the Flags origin also have an interest in this board does not mean that all do - or that the flag wears those views.

A case of sour grapes I think....

First of all, is it accurate to say that Cornish identity is “competing with” English identity? Does French identity compete with German identity or Italian identity compete with Swiss identity? Surely anyone who feels comfortable with their own identity, either individual or cultural, has no need to feel that they are competing with another individual or group. I guess if one views cultural differences (or similarities) in terms of a competition, than it is easy to get worked up over something as simple as a county flag. Personally, I think it’s great that both Devon and Somerset now have flags and I don’t see them as in any way competing with the Cornish flag. May all three wave proudly!

I am not from Devon - although I am of Devonian ancestry - and I certainly cannot speak for Burns, Turner or Pyne - all three are more than capable of speaking for themselves - but I fail to see how the legitimate discussion and promotion of those aspect of Devonian culture and history that are clearly Celtic in origin can be seen as in any way diminishing or “denuding” Cornish culture. It would seem to me that a greater understanding and appreciation of Celtic culture in other parts of the southwest can only strengthen Celtic culture in Cornwall.

I have not read everything that Turner has posted online but I have been following this forum for well over two years and I have yet to read anything that equates the situation in Devon with the suffering endured by the people of Ireland, Scotland or Wales or that denies that Devon is and has been an English shire for well over a thousand years. However, the situation in the West Country is different than that in many other parts of England in that it came late under Saxon rule.

The Saxons first entered Somerset after the Battle of Penselwood in 658. Scholars argue about the exact dates but it would appear that by 710 the boundary between Dumnonia (which Aldhelm calls "the western kingdom") and Wessex was located near Taunton in western Somerset and the Saxon advance into Devon proceeded from there during the eighth century. It was only during the reign of Athelstan (925-39) that the boundary between Devon and Cornwall was established along the Tamar.

Whether Biddulph’s reconstruction of Southwest Brythonic is accurate or not, it cannot be denied that a Celtic language directly related to Cornish and Welsh was spoken in the southwest long after it had vanished from much of the rest of what is now England. As has been mentioned before in this forum, in “The History of Cornwall from the Earliest Records to the Present Time” (Helston:William Penaluna, 1824) Fortescue Hitchens and Samuel Drew state that, “The Cornish language, it appears, was current in a part of the South Hams in the time of Edward 1st (1272-1307) ...[and that]...Long after that it was common on the banks of the Tamar and in Cornwall it was universally spoken.”

Of course, what all of this means to the people of Devon today is very much a matter of personal inclination and choice. For many it will probably mean very little. But for those who take an interest in history and heritage, it cannot help but foster a deeper understanding and appreciation of what it means to be Devonian.

Newvonian,

I agree.

Whilst investigating the above posting I came across an article on the Tyr-Gwyr-Gweryn site (which is run by Cornish Nationalist Jim Pengelly).

He has a section entitled "Devon & Wessex" which mentions the following.

Pengelly refer to "Borlase's "Antiquities (1769)"" which (apparently states that "long after the events of AD 936 that Totnes was still considered to be the eastern boundary of Cornwall - as late as the time of Henry III".

Apparently he also quotes the same author with reference to "the limits of Cornwall" thus

"This Cornwall, as has been hinted before, reached anciently far beyond its present limits, if it did not include all the ancient Dunmonium; for the Britans gave way by degrees, and disputed the ground with the Saxons for several centuries: but the fortune of the Saxons prevailed; and the Cornish Britans being soon forced to leave the Eastern part of Dumnonium in their possession, become bounded by the river Ex."

At this point we are directed to a footnote which says:

"Of this time we are to understand what Edward I. says (Sheringham. p. 129.) that Britain, Wales, and Cornwall, were the portion of Belinus, elder son of Dunwallo, and that that part of the Island, afterwards called England, was divided in three shares, viz. Britain, which reached from the Tweed, Westward, as far as the river Ex; Wales inclosed by the rivers Severn, and Dee; and Cornwall from the river Ex to the Land's-End"

I have no experience of Borlase, nor Sheringham, and the definition of "Britain" does seem rather confused - or misquoted.

However, although the TGG site seems to try to use this as "evidence" against Devon claiming a Celtic legacy, to my point of view it indicates the opposite.

It seems to support opinions put out by other historians such as Risdon and the Rev Sabine Baring-Gould that Devon retained Celtic speech and population until the 13th century.

In any event I fail to see why the retention of a Celtic identity or legacy for Devon should in any way hinder Cornwall's own claims. As Newvonian states they should support it.

As Newvonian and Ozzie Exile have stated, any recognition of Devon’s Celtic heritage and culture does not, and cannot, “denude” Cornwall’s heritage and culture. However, to Cornish Nationalists, such as the author of the article, Cornish identity extends beyond its heritage and culture, as they claim that the most important element in that ‘identity’ is that Cornwall is ‘unique’ in Britain (outside Scotland and Wales) in having such a Celtic identity. Thus the very act of stating that Devon has any sort of Celtic heritage and culture is viewed by the Cornish Nationalists as an attempt to rob (or denude) Cornwall of its ‘uniqueness’ in this respect. This is the real reason why they feel compelled to deny that Devon retained any semblance of Celtic heritage beyond the late Anglo-Saxon era regardless of any historical, archaeological, linguistic, cultural or genetic evidence. As far as these people are concerned, the Tamar must be seen as a clear and distinct ethnic and cultural boundary regardless of evidence.

Joseph Biddulph did not invent a “Westcountry Brythonic” language, although he was almost certainly responsible for that name for it. Under the name of “South West Brittonic” or “South West British”, it appears in the Celtic language family trees produced by a number of distinguished mainstream academics such as Professors Kim McCone, Karl Horst Schmidt and Christopher Snyder, e.g.:-

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~marisal/ie/celtic.html

Also, the body of evidence, that use of a Brythonic language (probably Cornish) persisted to some extent in parts of Devon into the 14th century or beyond, is sufficiently large and diverse as to give this notion a considerable amount of credibility. One such example is the ‘Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre (1238)’, which makes frequent references to the term ‘Walensis’, e.g. “William Walensis”. In the modern published version, this term is translated as ‘the Welshman’, but the very term ‘Welshman’ was in use in early medieval Britain to refer to any Brythonic speaker. In Scotland for instance, the term ‘Walensis’ was commonly used to refer to Brythonic speakers from the former ‘Welsh’ kingdom of Strathclyde. Of course it is possible that, in the case of the Crown Pleas, the term could refer to Welshmen from Wales, but the frequency of such usage would imply a very large inundation of people from Wales into Devon, far larger than migrations from Devon’s neighbouring counties of Cornwall, Dorset and Somerset put together. It has been suggested that ‘Walensis’ may refer to Cornishmen living in Devon, but this is ruled out by the fact that men from Cornwall are specifically referred to as “from Cornwall” in the text. It seems far more likely that these ‘Walensis’ were the residual Devonian Brythonic/Cornish speakers referred to in the historic literature (Risdon, Borlase, Sheringham, Hitchens and Drew, Baring-Gould, etc.).

To sum up the article, it is a gross distortion (bordering on libel) of almost everything that Paul Turner and I have ever contributed to such forums as this. Clearly the writer was either extremely negligent in obtaining his/her evidence, or he/she was intent on presenting a deliberately distorted version of the truth.

Just for the record, some of the things said in Fulup's post are not just possibly close to libellous but are most certainly against the BBC h2g2 house rules. As such, I came close to reporting the post minutes after it was made but decided not to, a) because Fulup would no doubt be keen to denounce removal as proof of some conspiracy and b) because so much of the post was such patent rubbish that I felt those mentioned by name should have the opportunity to redress the balance.

For my own part I would like point out that I find the implication of some political motive to the DFG somewhat offensive. I was one of those originally involved and I have never aligned myself to any political organisation. To say that flying the Devon Flag is indicative of any particular view, other than pride in the county, is surely akin to saying that anyone flying St Piran's flag is supporting Mebyon Kernow, which is clearly not true.