h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Well actually Scottish, Welsh and Cornish nationalists are generally centre left.

"More than anything though I want England and English people (that includes the Cornish and Devonians) to be treated equally within what is laughably called the "United" Kingdom. I want an English Parliament with at the very least equal powers to the Scottish Parliament. If an English Parliament wants to establish elected regional assemblies to administer England answering to an English Parliament I would also be happy about that. If an English Parliament wants to grant Cornwall and/or Devon a devolved assembly subservient to the English Parliament then I would also support that"

Whether the Cornish are English or not is really up to the Cornish to decide for themselves and not for you to dictate. "An assembly subservient to the English parliament" you choose your words well. If the Cornish want to be a home nation within the UK and part of Europe i am sure you would do everything in your power to stop it.

"Cornwall and Devon are not independent states"

Neither is England and it hasn't been for a long time. I think you need to check your definitions of state, nation and country.

"They do not have the ability to fend for, defend or finance themselves"

Neither do countless other small nations and autonomous regions so that’s why they band together in cooperative groups such as the EU.

Would England do so well without Scottish oil? Maybe if all our tax had not been pumped into London but evenly distributed around the UK things would be different. Maybe if the economy was not geared to promote the financial centre that is London and around the economies of the rest of the UK would fare better.

"They have no trappings of state"

Well both Devon and Cornwall had a large degree of autonomy with their Stannary parliaments and Cornwall can still be legally described as a duchy 'see Cornish foreshore case'.

"The fact that the native population of Cornwall and Devon from x thousand years ago was Celtic is irrelevant"

So where did you get the X thousand years ago figure from or did you just make it up? Again you need to draw difference between genetic ancestry and perceived ethno-national group they are quite different.
Cornish was spoken as a first language in Cornwall well into the modern period and today being Cornish is one of the competing forms of national identity in the Duchy whether you like it or not. When it comes to DNA the vast majority of UK citizens carry the genes of the peoples from before the Germanic or Romans invasions.

"Having nationhood 2 centuries ago does not mean you are capable of nationhood now"

Again a rather arbitrary figure and prejudiced decision to deny another peoples the right to self identify as a nation. Nationality exists in the minds of men, its only conceivable habitat. Outside men's minds there can be no nationality, because nationality is a manner of looking at oneself not an entity an sich. Common sense is able to detect it, and the only human discipline that can describe and analyse it is psychology. This awareness, this sense of nationality, this national sentiment, is more than a characteristic of a nation. It is nationhood itself.

"Independence for Cornwall and Devon would be a financial disaster. It/they would be the poorest countries in Europe"

That’s what they said about Ireland but within European Union I think we would do very well thank you. Complete separation/independence would certainly remove the ambiguity where that is desirable and, indeed, practicable. For example: is there a distinct territory and would those in power be willing to 'let go'?

Within Europe, there is the tangible consequence of imperial nation-building and what I call 'the children of Empire' who [thanks to The British Myth] would be immediately in conflict with, in our case, the Break-up of the United Kingdom.

What I would, personally, like to see is 'bottom-up' sovereign governments for each nation and any Federal / Confederal arrangements not being superior to, but a glorified secretariat serving the needs of the nation-states with which it may be associated by treaty.

This then begs the question whether such association needs to be with Westminster or Brussels since its remit would be based on treaties regarding non-domestic arrangements only [external affairs in common etc.]

Anything is possible, given the will.

"Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - all 3 of which are actual countries"

Depends on your point of view; some could say England is not a country; have you looked at your passport recently?

Lowena dhys

The new Cornish Constitutional Convention site: http://www.cornishassembly.org

Is it just me or is this forum starting to go way off topic? As far as I can tell, it was originally established so that individuals interested in Celtic history, culture and traditions in Devon could share information and ideas. I can’t speak for anyone else but I doubt very much if very many of the contributors to this forum over the past four years have any desire to see Devon separate from England.

If Fulup and/or Wonkotsane have any contributions to make to the topic of Celtic Devon please feel free to make them. However, if they want to discuss the topic of Cornish Nationalism versus English Nationalism or any topic other than the one for which this forum was set up, I suggest that they find somewhere else to continue their discussion.

wonkotsane,

You appear to be under the misapprehension that Devonians are hankering after some sort of independence from England, Britain, the UK, Europe, or whatever. This is not the case at all. However, if some sort of devolution of power within England, Britain, etc. was feasible, then I believe that most Devonians would jump at the opportunity of gaining a Devon Assembly, or at least enhanced powers for Devon County Council and the two Unitary Authorities.

In one respect you are well adrift from reality, when you say “there are probably proportionately as many people with Anglo-Saxon DNA in England as there are Celtic in Cornwall.” If by “Celtic” you mean descendents of the indigenous (pre-Saxon) Britons, then I am afraid that you couldn’t be further from the truth. Along the entire southern coastal region of England from Kent to Cornwall, the Anglo-Saxon DNA signature represents a mere 25% of the current population. In fact the combined Anglo-Saxon/Danish contribution to the English gene pool represents only about 40% of the total, the remaining 60% coming from the Britons. Only in East Anglia and the York area are the Germanic descendents found to be in the majority. So I am afraid that your notion of a numerically dominant Anglo-Saxon (Germanic) England is pure myth. Capelli et al, in their paper “A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles” conclude: “Perhaps the most surprising conclusion is the limited continental input in southern England, which appears to be predominantly indigenous and, by some analyses, no more influenced by the continental invaders than is mainland Scotland.”

Sigh, where to begin with Wonkotsane's last post? Few people argue for full independence for Cornwall, nobody has argued for an independent Devon to my knowledge, and the Scottish, Welsh and Cornish nationalist parties were all left of centre last time I looked.

"I am opposed to the EU because its regional agenda means the end of England, because it costs us much more than we can ever hope to benefit from membership and because I want to be ruled by an elected English person, not an unelected corrupt European politician who is immune from prosecution." - leaving aside the question of when "English" and "European" became mutually exclusive terms, this is the line that English nationalists always trot out when explaining why the rest of England should always be subservient to That London. None of them is ever able to answer the question of how France, Spain, Germany, the USA and Canada (among others) continue to exist despite having regional government.

Just to agree the main Scottish nationalist parties (SNP, SSP and Scottish Greens) are all to a degree centre left. And Plaid Cymru had an MP elected under a joint PC/Green ticket, both centre left parties in Wales. Also, the trot out of the opinion Scotland is a subsidy junky. Scotland a) costs more to run (it's sparsely polulated, rugged terrain and covers a third of the island of Great Britain) and b) if Scotland had achieved independence after thew second world war, it would be, according to the UK treasury, be one of the top five RICHEST countries in Europe thanks to the financial sector and oil. When oil is taken into account for someething like every £1 Scotland gets from London, it pays £2 - £3. So who is subsiodising who? BTW I vote for a Unionist party (I won't say which) but with some elements of English Nationalism can understand the urge to vote SNP (which I did in the last local elections here) Politically I am in favour of proper devolution to the English Regions and some link up between them for England. That is the only way our union will survive.

PS and I agree with Newvonian, can we get this board back to Devon?

"back to Devon"

Yes I totally agree and I would like to invite the English nationalist to come over on to the Cornwall 24 boards where I will reproduce some of his/her thoughts under the title 'Views of an English Nationalist’
Click here: http://www.cornwall24.co.uk/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=16664#16664


Just to leave the rest of you with the Cornish assembly petition: http://www.petitiononline.com/kernow2/petition.html

Before anyone gets too enthusiastic about signing the on-line Cornish Assembly petition (linked to by Fulup), there are a couple of considerations to take into account. Item 1. calling for a Cornish Assembly is fairly non-contentious. You are either against it or for it (I am for it). However, item 2. starts to get a little more contentious:-

“2. I oppose a referendum for the South West which includes Cornwall and which seeks to test support for a SW regional assembly.”

It appears that the only reason the originators of the petition oppose the holding of this referendum is that in its present form it includes Cornwall. This implies that if it did not include Cornwall, they would not be opposed to it. Why would this be? Well, if the referendum was an ‘all or nothing’ affair, i.e. the electorate is asked if they support a South West Regional Assembly or no devolution at all, then neither a ‘yes’ vote nor a ‘no’ vote would allow any possibility of a Cornish Assembly. This would also rule out the possibility of a Devon Assembly.

The true agenda of the petition becomes clear in item 3., where we find:-

“3. I support a referendum in the six counties of the south west on the question of a SW assembly, to run parallel with, and to work jointly with a Cornish Assembly where appropriate.”

By supporting a referendum in the six South West counties, other than Cornwall, the petition originators are clearly saying that they do not want any possibility that Devon (or any of the other five counties) could end up with its own assembly. So what the petition is really saying is that Cornwall should get its own assembly, but no other South West county should be allowed that option. This petition is yet another example of Cornish interference in the affairs of its close neighbours. Think twice before signing it.

I have just come back from a break... to Devon... and a lot’s been going here while I was away! English nationalism has come to these pages, as I write on St George’s day!

I agree that the thread should return to the subject of Celtic Devon, but I would just like to comment briefly on this new area having missed the main part of the English nationalism discussion yesterday.

I think for a long time England has been quite a hard country to define, as it has for centuries masked its own identity inside empire and the UK, so much so that the whole union is often mistakenly described as England, and England itself is mistakenly described in terms of the whole union.

Also England is far too centralized. The reason for England’s tenuous sense of national identity lies with the overwhelming dominance of its own capital, and the massive concentration of just about everything in the one city of London. Other large English cities try to compete but the gap in almost all areas is just so huge. Also I have the sense now, which has been growing over the years, that London is rapidly breaking away from its ‘host’ nation of England.

I have often said that the UK is actually made up of five countries, not four; England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland... and London. I have experienced London for 9 years now and I have to say there is nothing particularly ‘English’ about it. I am not talking about race, but its culture in general, and particularly its economy. It is like a self-contained city state. This thriving multinational metropolis now looks more to itself and to overseas than to the increasingly disregarded hinterland of England that it is supposed to be the capital of.

The result is an England that often looks (if it not actually is) surprisingly poor with a patchy infrastructure of substandard roads and railways, which in the south east’s case, lies only half an hour or so away from central London.

London, in a huge exercise of self-celebration, awarded itself billions of pounds of investment for the Olympic games, to be spent in and around London. I live near Canary Wharf where, again, billions were spent building a second new global financial centre within half an hour’s walk of the first one in the City. Why was it not built in Birmingham, the supposed second city? All they got was a new shopping centre, which seems to be the current one-track idea of developing run-down old ‘provincial’ cities. London gets Olympic stadia, endless multi-billion pound investment in transport, towering skyscrapers, and everyone else gets... yet another shopping centre.

Recently looking on at Exeter’s pollution-choked, paralysed road system and travelling on the two lane, permanently grid-locked, potholed road that links Torbay with Exeter, made me think how tiny a fraction of the Olympic money, or the Millennium Dome money, would have been enough to reopen all the shut-down branch lines in Devon to provide a light railway like the one in the London Docklands, and the huge effect that would have the economy and quality of life in Devon.

Exeter and Plymouth are being offered ‘regeneration’. What form does that take, guess what... two new shopping centres!

My rant is going off the point now, which was vaguely connected to English nationalism, but I will try—briefly—to tie it together now. England is a fragmented, disregarded country, starved of essential regional investment, and suffering a lot of hidden social and economic problems that London’s media and political establishment ignore. That is why I agree with devolution of the English regions.

But devolution has be done with sensitivity and intelligence, the plans so far proposed show neither.

Speaking here only for the far west, Cornwall and Devon are not the south of England, and are economically and culturally different even to neighbouring Somerset and Dorset. The current now lapsed devolution plans do not address that reality. Cornish separatists frequently fall into the trap of equating the whole of Devon with the Exeter and East Devon area, which is more like what you see further east. Yes, that area has much in common with Somerset and Dorset, but the north, west and the central highland areas have much more in common with their Cornish neighbours, so co-operation between these culturally and economically similar regions would make more sense than forcing massive swathes of Devon into a South West region that would offer them little economically, and denude their cultural identity just the same as if it was imposed on Cornwall.

Both Cornwall and Devon are tired of being told that they are economically failed and shored up by the rest of England as in Wonkotsane’s point. I have two points to make; if Cornwall and Devon are so failed why are people from all over England queuing up to move there and to innumerable other ‘backward’ places like Ireland and rural France. The answer is to escape from their own dreary stress and crime-filled living environments that their own brand of so-called advancement has brought about. We can do without that kind of economic development. Secondly, the people in the far west have so little independence to build their own style of economy and infrastructure through accountable regional governance, that no-one has yet seen what is possible there. I don’t agree with everything Fulup says but I agree with his point about Ireland being a very good example of what might be possible. Once ridiculed in the same way, Ireland has become a prosperous and self-confident nation, and at the same time has kept much of its original identity and quality of life without the social alienation and massive sprawling urban over-development that spoiled many parts of England.

I agree with you EVB, and by the way welcome back.

London is viewed by people in Scotland as the UKs subsidy junky. For a country of our size the UK is over centralised. I don't think that any of the Olympic money for 2012 will filter beyond the M25. In Scotland we are being offered football. Er, that is why Scotland and Ireland are seeking a Euro championship isn't it?? But of course Glasgow is a candidate city for the Commmonwealth Games of 2014, so we won't see a single penny.

People in Scotland knock the parliament. The UK press does the same and Labour treat it as a pet, but it has done good things since 1999. The abolition of clause 2A (I believe it's equivalent is still in operation in England), proper voting for local councils, FREE bus travel across Scotland for OAPs, the Smoking Ban (Tony was still fighting for a compromise for England and Wales when the COMPLETE ban in public places came into effect in Scotland) for starters. They all work, that is devolution. At least we don't get fobbed off with shopping centres. Also surely the UKs second financial centre is Edinburgh or has Tony forgotten?

England is too big to have devolution to an English parliament without further regional devolution, the larger regions would dominate. As always.

The English regions and Wales must be given what Scotland already has, legislative parliaments/assemblies, able to properly represent the people they serve. And also, in England, meaningful regions, not regions created to serve the interests of one or other political party, but regions the people associate with. The proposed SW region is far too big, from the Isles of Scilly to the suburbs of Birmingham? It is at least two, possibly three regions.

As EVB also says the wealth of Devon and Cornwall is similar to the north of England, only geography places us with the south. There was always the semi joke I heard growing up "northern wages, southern prices", which I feel could be applied across the two counties, and much of Somerset, not just Mid Devon. But EVB, do you place us in East Devon? Mid Devon is closer in outlook, at least the bit I know and love, to Somerset that say Sidmouth. We look either to the north coast (try telling a Scottish spouse that the north is Barnstaple when there are road signs saying "The South - Carlisle"), to Okehampton and the moors or across the Blackdown Hills. Exeter is as far SE in Devon we would generally venture. And western Somerset is not that well off either. And has a similar accent, though is generally placed in a different accent area.

It is difficult to conclude, but have been talking to said Scottish spouse about EVBs post. She agrees, there is a new country in the Union, London. No offense to London, there are pockets of deprivation in the English and Union capital that would give us all nighmares, but it sucks in the money and talent of the rest of the UK like a sponge.

But before I go, one more thing about Ireland. Bord Failte in Ireland spends more money p.a in Canada then Visitscotland does for the entire planet. Dublin fear, given Scotland's history, landscape, cultural symbolism that if Scotland even spent half Ireland's advertising it would win hands down. Visit Scotland is meant to advertise, outwith th UK and EU, through the London based BTB. Where does it promote? It ain't Wales, it ain't Scotland, it ain't the Westcountry, it ain't the Midlands and it ain't the North of England. We are all add ons.

Here endeth tivvyboy's rant, and may I wish everybody a Happy Saint George's Day, also the birthday of the greatest writer the English language has ever known. Happy Birthday, William Shakespeare.

Those interested in the on-line petition for Cornwall may also be interested in two on-line petitions for Devon.

http://www.petitiononline.com/64dev273/petition.html (864 names)

http://www.petitiononline.com/Devon/petition.html (120 names)

Both these petitions oppose the introduction of a SW Regional assembly, and prefer the retention or enhancement of local government for and on behalf of Devonians.

In total these two petitions hold just under 1,000 names.

From a personal perspective I do not see any merit in an "English" parliament.

I can visualise another "House of Parliament" - perhaps 8/10 the size of the existing Westminster buildings. They would look very cosy nestled together on the banks of the Thames.

The only upside is that it would provide London with a great source of renewable energy - hot air.

It would be almost as remote from Devon as Westminster is - perhaps more so because Westminster was almost forced to acknowledge the status of Scotland, Wales and NI.

I think it would still be as remote from devon if it was based in Birmingham, Manchester, or Leeds.

If an English Parliament was established it would covers such a large percentage of Britain's population that it could only make sense economically if the existing Westminster Parliament were significantly reduced and downsized - which would effectively undo the union.

I don't see how this would benefit Devon - nor other regions of Britain.

>>The Ottery St. Mary’s tradition may well have a similar origin. I think that in places where some form of this tradition was still practiced in the early 17th century, or where the memory of the tradition was still alive, the Guy Fox theme simply provided a convenient excuse to either continue or revive an older tradition even if the date had to be moved forward by a few days.<<

Yes, that's very much the case. There are numerous examples of ancient customs being given legitimacy by a more contemporary event. Indeed the customs surrounding Guy Fawkes day, and those surrounding Halloween, are very similar.

Many of these traditions actually extend back far into antiquity. Based on his study of the Irish folk calender, Kevin Danaher states that the pre-Christian Irish year was divided into four seasons with the beginning of each being marked by a major festival. These were Imbolc (February 1), Bealtaine (May 1), Lúnasa (August 1) and Samhain (November 1). Respectively, these festivals marked the beginning of spring, summer, autumn and winter. According to Danaher, this division of the year corresponds to the seasonal cycle of a “corn-growing, stock-raising and dairy produc[ing]” people living under the climatic conditions found in a restricted area of northwestern Europe (namely northwestern Spain, northwestern France, Western Britain and Ireland) and may have its roots in Neolithic times. Each of these festivals occurred about 45 or 46 days after a solstice or an equinox and they marked the beginning of “ploughing in spring, calving and abundance of milk in early summer, harvest in early Autumn and storage in early Winter.”

Danaher states that these festivals were still widely practiced in Ireland in the early twentieth century and are still carried on in some parts of Ireland today. In Britain we can see the same basic division of the year in Candlemas Day, May Day, Lammas and the various fire and light traditions around November 1 (Ottery St. Mary Tar Barrel, Punky Night, Hallowe’en and, in some places at least, Guy Fawkes).

Here is how Danaher describes Samhain:

“Bad weather, with rain and cold could be expected, and all the provision of food, fodder and fuel would be stored away. Cattle were put in the byres and sheep were folded. No more fruits, domestic or wild, were picked. Fishermen drew up their boats and repaired and stored gear. ... In some areas great bonfires were lit. Every household had a festive supper at which young and old feasted on rustic goodies and took part in marriage divination games. Groups of young people in disguise or fancy dress went about collecting minor tribute from the householders and often playing tricks upon the ungenerous.

Danaher also suggests that the bonfire tradition “may be a survival of a system of signal fires to announce the coming of the season day which was of such vital import not merely as a festival but also as an indication to farmers that the time had come to begin some essential agricultural operation”

Here in Newfoundland as late as the mid 1960s we didn’t use pumpkins to make Jack O’Lanterns for Hallowe’en - that was just something we saw on American television. Instead, we hollowed out turnips. I can remember as a child sitting in front of the TV, scraping out a turnip with a spoon and eating what I scraped. In some places, as late as the 1950s, young people in Newfoundland dressed up like mummers and carried their turnip Jack O’Lanterns (with a candle inside) from door to door on Hallowe’en. When every house had been visited, the Jack O’Lantern was usually left on the gatepost to burn out during the night.


Kevin Danaher’s paper, “Irish Folk Traditions and the Celtic Calender” is published in Robert O’Driscoll, ed., “The Celtic Consciousness” ( New York: George Braziller, 1982 ) pp. 217-242. ISBN 0-8076-1041-0

i for one would like to see cornwall, devon and even somerset and dorset have its own law making parliament like wales and scotland then maybe we could have some say in how we live our lives and not told by london whose about as removed from us as washington dc!!! fed up with city multi cultural saxon based politicians ignorning our ancient customs and pastimes. 81% of all people in those four counties have celtic dna, fact! 98.5% of the ethnice make up is white britons but were forced to accept multi culturalisme at the expense of our tru identity. live and let live but its our culture first in our country. we can make out own laws and let you eat our pasties and cream teas without 20% tax!

The idea of a joint "parliament" for Devon,Cornwall,Somerset and Dorset has some appeal, but by itself is likely to be opposed by many from Cornwall (and Devon for that matter) who want some (or perhaps in Conwall;s case complete) independence.

Actually this is not all that unusual in regions seeking some autonomy (presumably whilst still within the British Union)

It could be achieved by having a devolved or federated approach allowing a significant level of powers to each of Cornwall, Devon etc....

Gaving said that, I doubt the Cornish would agree, and thereby we all might be denied.