h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

This is what English nationalists think of your Devonshire Celtic thing: http://www.crossofstgeorge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4170&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Friendly lot hum?

But of course it's the Cornish nationalists who are your real enemies!

I hope that there is no need to speak of enemies in this matter. Personally I entered into this discussion not to make enemies or because I have an axe to grind but because I have a deep and genuine interest in this topic. I believe that while political boundaries are easy to define, cultural boundaries are often much more fluid and hard to pin down. The old belief that all people of Celtic ancestry in the southwest were either killed or driven west across the Tamar just doesn’t hold up under the weight of current historical, archaeological, linguistic, or genetic evidence.

Having said that let me also say that I wish nothing but the best for Cornwall and its people. I come to this out of a genuine love of Celtic culture and anything that can be done to make Cornwall a shining beacon of Celtic culture in the southwest will have my whole hearted support. I only hope that when the Cornish look east across the Tamar they will see not their enemies but their cousins and their comrades.

Newvonian,

Welcome to the Celtic Devon forum. I think you can be assured that the vast majority of the Cornish people enjoy friendly relations with their Devonian cousins/neighbours. Unfortunately, there is a tiny (but highly vociferous) minority of Cornish Nationalist activists who feel the need to deny the existence of all but a tiny vestigial Celtic heritage in Devon, and these people go out of their way to distort Devon’s history. You have yourself witnessed one such case, i.e. the distorted account of the Western Prayer Book Rebellion. There have been many other such instances, including one from Professor Philip Payton, Director of the Institute of Cornish Studies (who should have known better). When the Devon Flag was designed and marketed, many Devonians wished to dedicate it to the most prolific of the Celtic Saints in Devon, St. Petroc. This did not go down well with the Cornish Nationalists, who regard all Celtic Saints as being ‘Cornish’ Saints and their own ‘patented’ property. Professor Payton commented to BBC Devon:-

"The idea of naming the flag after St Petroc is gratuitously offensive," says Prof Payton. "Most people here will treat it with mild disdain."

This was despite the fact that there are twice as many dedications to St. Petroc in Devon as there are in Cornwall. It is not as if the Devonians were trying to ‘hi-jack’ Cornwall’s own patron saint St. Piran.

There seems to be a degree of insecurity among the Cornish activists regarding Cornwall’s continued membership of the Celtic League and Celtic Congress. It appears that when they were first admitted, they had a lot of persuading to do to achieve membership, and doubts remain. This is well explained in a paper by Dr Bernard Deacon who (like Philip Payton) also adopts a high degree of scepticism concerning Devon’s Celtic heritage:-

http://www.institutes.ex.ac.uk/ics/On%20being%20a%20Cornish%20celt.pdf

In order to convince the Celtic League of Cornwall’s impeccable Celtic credentials, many activists go out of their way to demonstrate that neighbouring Devon is very ‘non-Celtic’. This is where the distortion of Devon’s history comes into play.

Our friend Fulup le Breton tends to play hot and cold. Sometimes he seems to be open to reason, such as the time that I was asked to outline some of the Celtic cultural activities that had survived in Devon. My reply was:-

“Celtic sports, traditions and cultural activities: In Devon there are: Devon wrestling, Out Hurling, Crying the Neck, Flaming Tar Barrel pageant, Obby Oss pageant (Combe Martin), Devon Step dancing.”

Fulup seemed to be quite impressed by this list:-

“Bob if correct the information you and your team have collected and reproduced here on mass seems to portray a southwest peninsula with a high degree of celticity.”

However I strongly suspect that he must have come under pressure from some of the more hard-line Nationalists, who cannot tolerate any admission that Devon may have any Celtic heritage. In his next post he tried to claim that the “if correct” part of his reply was the critical bit, and that he did not believe that any significant Celtic culture now existed in Devon. When I asked him whether he meant what he had said the first time, he replied:-

“Yes within which a Cornish ethno-national identity has survived, the same cannot be said of Devonshire.”

I will leave it up to you to try to interpret this rather strange and sudden change of attitude.

We do not have any desire to gain entry to the Celtic League or any other such political organisation. Our interest in Devon’s Celtic heritage is strictly non-political, and we leave political adherences to the individual. If the Cornish Nationalists concentrated on matters that were purely Cornish, and did not interfere in any way with Devon’s history, heritage and culture, we would be more than happy to leave them to it, but I am afraid the reality is that they feel the need to distort these aspects of Devon’s history, in order (as they see it) to ‘protect’ their own heritage. The distortions range from the Athelstan incident, to the Prayer Book Rebellion, Devon’s status within the Duchy of Cornwall, Devon’s Stannary Parliament and its status, Celtic Saints, language survival, place-names, the right to have a flag, cultural survivals, etc. The interference is never ending.

Just to end with a bit of humour, the most bizarre distortion I have heard so far is that ‘many of the Brythonic derived place-names that are to be found in Devon were put there by Cornishmen, and are therefore not Devonian’. One has to seriously doubt the sanity of some of these people.

Bob

Fulup,

I have come across the "crossofstgeorge" site before, and there are a number of contributors who give nationalism - any nationalism - a bad name.

These StGX contributors (and I do not suggest all contributors here) denegrate their neighbours - be they Welsh Scottish Irish or French - and maintain a determined air of supposed "english" superiority.

They sound like the soccer right wing thugs of 30 years ago - older (perhaps) but no wiser.

We would hope for better behaviour from neighbours such as Devon and Cornwall - after all if all we did was parody this behaviour then really we wouldn't be any better would we???

It is said that "the patriot loves his own country, the nationalist hates everyone else's". Based on this criterion, most of the Cornish "nationalists" I have come across would better be described as Cornish patriots, but these English nationalists are definitely worthy of the name.

Incidentally, it is ironic that they are using the same line to bash those interested in Devon's Celtic past that they have used against the Wessex movement, the Cornish movement and the South West Constitutional Convention (meetings of which were routinely disrupted by UKIP delegates shouting down the speakers - even those of us who went down to protest got peed off by their obnoxious behaviour). According to the Eng Nats, it is all part of a conspiracy by Brussels to destroy England. Funny sort of "conspiracy" that includes at least two sets of organisations (the official government regional bodies and the grassroots movements in Wessex and Cornwall) with mutually exclusive aims.

>This is well explained in a paper by Dr Bernard Deacon who (like Philip Payton) also adopts a high degree of scepticism concerning Devon’s Celtic heritage:-

He devotes all of two sentences to it, so I wouldn't call that a high degree. He is also sceptical about some aspects of Cornish nationalism ("What Jago had begun in the 1880s and Nance taken up in the 1920s led to an early example of Edward Cowan’s ‘clamjamfry’ as the Old Cornwall societies set about re-defining almost any ‘tradition’ as ‘Celtic’. For some, this was going too far. Arthur Quiller-Couch was, by the 1930s, dismissing the craze for making Celtic connections as ‘speculative fervour outrunning evidence’"). This speculative fervour can also be seen in the Celtic Devon movement - I wonder how many of the Devon traditions Bob lists are really Celtic in origin. I've been re-reading Ralph Whitlock's 'The Folklore of Devon', and some of them only seem to date back a couple of centuries.

Nick,

My use of the term “high degree of scepticism” (as applied to Bernard Deacon) was not based solely on the contents of that paper, but on a number of his writings and radio interviews.

I fully understand your point about which cultural activities can be labelled ‘Celtic’ or not. Some of these activities, even in established Celtic lands such as Ireland, can only be traced via documentary evidence for about two or three centuries. My criterion has been to examine which regions other instances of these activities are common in.

For instance, I would conclude that we can be fairly sure that Devon Out Hurling has Celtic roots based on the fact that forms of Hurling are common in the Celtic lands but virtually unheard of in core Anglo-Saxon areas. The game of Hurling was first documented in the Irish Brehon Laws, compiled during the 5th century. There is strong evidence of some Irish migration to North Cornwall and North Devon during the 5th and 6th centuries, when the region was still Dumnonia. Although there is no proof, it seems highly likely that an early form of Hurling was introduced to the region at that time, and evolved into Cornish Hurling in Cornwall and Out Hurling in Devon. Also in the 5th century, parts of South West Wales and Western Scotland were colonised from Ireland, and in these areas we find similar games called Cnapan and Shinty respectively. Whichever way one looks at it, it seems that Out Hurling’s origin was Celtic.

Well, the flaming tar barrels are part of the Ottery St. Mary fireworks display, so are unlikely to be older than the gunpowder plot. The Hunting of the Earl of Rone can apparently be traced back to the capture of an Irish rebel, the Earl of Tyrone, in the reign of Elizabeth I, so can only be said to be Celtic in that the Earl was an Irishman. Most of the other customs you mention are of indeterminate origin, and could be Celtic, Saxon, Norman or later.

Nick,

The Ottery St. Mary ‘Flaming Tar Barrels’ pageant is thought to be much older than the Gunpowder Plot, and was incorporated into the Guy Fawkes night celebrations when these started. The Hunting of the Earl of Rone is really two ceremonies in one, having been combined. The earlier one is the Hobby Horse pageant, similar to those at Padstow and Minehead. The other customs are of indeterminate age, but if they were Saxon or Norman in origin, why are they virtually unknown in most parts of England, yet common in Cornwall, Wales, Scotland and Ireland? In fact ‘Crying the neck’ seems to be exclusive to Devon and Cornwall.

Many of the fire ceremonies that take place in the British Isles on or around November 5th are actually much older than the Gun Powder Plot and originally marked the beginning of winter in the Celtic calender. In Ireland it was called Samhain and has been popularized today, at least in North America, as Halloween. Anne Ross writes that in the pagan Celtic tradition, “the gods were particularly hostile and dangerous at this time, playing cruel tricks on their worshipers ... so in the surviving practices the festival is marked once more by fire, violence, the demand on the part of young men for gifts from those at whose homes they clamour for entry and the subsequent vandalism which ensued when hospitality was refused”. Sound familiar?

The Ottery St. Mary’s tradition may well have a similar origin. I think that in places where some form of this tradition was still practiced in the early 17th century, or where the memory of the tradition was still alive, the Guy Fox theme simply provided a convenient excuse to either continue or revive an older tradition even if the date had to be moved forward by a few days.

The quote above is from Anne Ross, “Material Culture, Myth and Folk Memory”, in, Robert O’Driscoll, ed., “The Celtic Consciousness” (New York: George Braziller, 1982, p.197) ISBN 0-8076-1041-0

Sorry about the typo. Of course it should be Guy Fawkes (or if you prefer "Guido Fawkes")not Guy "Fox" although the latter does conjure up some interesting images.

It's worth mentioning, though, that both Guy Fawkes Night celebrations and hobby horses are found all over the British Isles, not just in "Celtic" areas.

Of course, there can be no doubt that in many parts of the British Isles the Guy Fawkes celebrations are exactly what they appear to be. However, I think that in places (Celtic, British or whatever you want to call them) where the old celebrations survived, either in practice or in memory, Guy Fawkes probably provided a convenient (and socially sanctioned) excuse to carry on an older tradition.

By the way, Bonfire Night (we never called it Guy Fawkes Night) was, and still is, a big night in Newfoundland. I have lots of fond memories from my childhood of spending evenings cutting and hauling wood, dancing around the fire like some kind of banshee on the big night and wandering home smelling of wood smoke once the flames started to die down. We knew about Guy Fawkes but it always seemed pretty peripheral to what we were doing - the sort of thing your school teacher would tell you to give you some excuse for what was happening. Certainly, the lighting of fires at the onset of winter must be one of the most primal of traditions.

Thank you all for such a warm welcome.

Yes the behaviour of the contributors to the COSG site is really rather pathetic; England and English nationalism deserve much better.

Nothing wrong with English nationalists - I'm one and I'm not a soccer thug, right wing nazi, racist, facist or any other label you might want to give me. I'm also an Admin at the Cross of St George forum and to be honest, your thread here isn't exactly wonderful is it? The few Cornish nationalists we had at Cross of St George have mostly been muppets who have flamed members already on the board if they don't agree with their bizarre belief that a Cornish nation that hasn't existed for something like 2,000 years and is now one of the poorest parts of England, should be given independence! Cornwall is in an even worse state than Scotland and they need £11.3bn a year in subsidies to keep the baliff's from the door.

People in glass houses ...

Wonkotsane,

In my posting (above) I did state that it was only a number of the StGx contributors who give English Nationalism a bad name - not all.

I have come across the "crossofstgeorge" site before, and there
are a number of contributors who give nationalism - any nationalism
- a bad name.

These StGX contributors (and I do not suggest all contributors here)
denegrate their neighbours.....

With regards to Cornwall being 'one of the poorest parts of England' it might just be that is because being part of England hasn't helped it financially. [This is worrying - I sound like I am agreeing with Fulup]. Westminster and London take all the wealth etc etc..

Scotland and Wales would say the same.

Perhaps they have a point.

Average incomes in Devon are well below the average for England - almost as low as the Cornish in fact - so it can be said it hasn't done much for Devon either.

And (the refer to a thread that was on StGX) I don't see that is because we are less intelligent!

Cornwall gets a lot of money from Europe and the UK government - much more than other parts of England. Not sure about Devon.

Yes, there are problem people on the forum but we announced "Operation Knuckledragger" recently and we've already banned a couple of problem members. As and when people step over the line we will deal with them.

Wonkotsane: I can only speak from experience and my experience is that most English nationalists I have encountered are from the right or extreme right, extremely ignorant and hostile to Cornish or English regional affairs and europhobic. All I can say is prove me wrong, I would be more than happy.

Your comments about Cornish claims and culture demonstrate this adequately and all I can suggest is try to learn about Cornwall and the Cornish before you comment.

As has been said if Cornwall is poor one must ask why? Why do we need so much EU funding and why does Westminster take so much in tax?

Just to put things in perspective:

Mebyon Kernow have more elected members than all the English nationalist groups put together yet its English nationalists who have refuse to take the Cornish movement seriously. It is the English nationalist scene that contains a huge proportion of groups from the extreme right yet it is the Eng Nat’s who moan about how anti English the Cornish, Welsh and Scots are. “Those damned conquered minority peoples they always look to stab a chap in the back”.

The last English nationalist who ventured onto the Cornwall 24 board claimed not to be from the extreme right but all he/she did was to slag of the Scots and whinge about Cornish anti English sentiments, at no point did this individual attempt to engage in constructive debate. In fact at no time has any Eng Nat group tried to engage with the Cornish movement.

If the COSG site is so reasonable then why is one of its moderators the most virulently anti Cornish?

PS why have i not been allowed to join the COSG, CEP or EDP message boards?

Scared of something, because frankely most of the arguments i see used against the Cornish movement on these boards i could tear apart in my sleep and i have no doubt the Devonshire lot could do the same.

I don't know why you haven't been allowed to join the board. I leave other people to do the approving/rejecting of members. My guess is that you are trying to use a free webmail address which are blocked.

As for English nationalists being right wing - yes, a lot of them are. British nationalists are also mostly right wing, as are Welsh nationalists, Scottish nationalists and Cornish nationalists. Tories are also fairly right wing, as are UKIP.

That leaves ... Labour and Lib Dems as the left wing contingent in British politics and a minority I'm afraid.

Myself, I'm neither left nor right. In fact, I'm not centre either. I have my own opinions on things and refuse to be pigeon-holed or labelled. Some of my opinions are right wing, some left wing and some neither.

I am an English nationalist and proud of it. I am not right wing, I am not racists, facist or xenophobic. I do not hate foreigners, regardless of nationality, colour or religion. I am opposed to the EU because its regional agenda means the end of England, because it costs us much more than we can ever hope to benefit from membership and because I want to be ruled by an elected English person, not an unelected corrupt European politician who is immune from prosecution.

More than anything though I want England and English people (that includes the Cornish and Devonians) to be treated equally within what is laughably called the "United" Kingdom. I want an English Parliament with at the very least equal powers to the Scottish Parliament. If an English Parliament wants to establish elected regional assemblies to adminster England answering to an English Parliament I would also be happy about that. If an English Parliament wants to grant Cornwall and/or Devon a devolved assembly subservient to the English Parliament then I would also support that.

Cornwall and Devon are not independent states. They do not have the ability to fend for, defend or finance themselves. They have no trappings of state and have poorer economies than most Eastern-European countries. The fact that the native population of Cornwall and Devon from x thousand years ago was Celtic is irrelevant. The dominant race in England at the same time was Anglo-Saxon but there are probably proportionately as many people with Anglo-Saxon DNA in England as there are Celtic in Cornwall. Having nationhood 2 centuries ago does not mean you are capable of nationhood now.

Independence for Cornwall and Devon would be a financial disaster. It/they would be the poorest countries in Europe - poorer even than Albania, the current poor relative of Europe. It just isn't going to happen. Cornwall and Devon are both counties in England. It has no more claim to independent nationhood than Northumberland or Wessex or any other county that was an independent state 2,000 years ago. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - all 3 of which are actual countries - cannot survive without multi-billion pound subsidies from England. How on earth do you propose that two counties in the south-west of England with very little infrastructure or industry would survive outside of England when the other 3 home nations are unable to do so? Will you all return to subsistence farming and barter?