h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I have often read that the Saxon conquest of Devon must have been quite overwhelming, judging by the small percentage of Devon place names of Celtic origin (a figure of 10% has been quoted). This has always puzzled me, as it only takes a brief glance at a map of Devon to see hundreds of place names containing Celtic elements such as Combe, Dun, Pen, Tor, Pol, Lan etc. Just counting the percentage of place names containing these root words alone resulted in a figure approaching 40%, so the figure of 10% just did not make any sense.

I am now beginning to understand the reasoning behind this apparent anomaly, though I contend that this reasoning is fatally flawed. I am currently reading a book entitled "Celtic Voices English Places - Studies of the Celtic impact on place names in England" by Richard Coates and Andrew Breeze (2000), which seems to supply the solution to this conundrum. The main part of the book consists of a number of case studies of problematic place names, divided up into geographic zones. These are: Somerset and the Hither West Country (Hither West Country seems to refer to the 'rump' of Wessex, i.e. Dorset, Hampshire and Wiltshire), Devon, The English East, The West Midlands, and Lancashire. Note the absence of Cornwall and Cumbria in this main part of the book. This is explained by the contention that as both Cornwall and Cumbria had their own Brittonic languages until times well after the Dark Ages, the presence of place names of Brittonic origin is not considered to be problematic.

The authors make a promising start when they state that there is evidence for the survival of Brittonic speaking communities in the Hither West Country well into the period of Saxon occupation, based on the existence of clusters of Brittonic place names. In the Devon section, Brittonic origins are suggested for Clovelly, the River Clyst, Countisbury, Crediton and the River Creedy, Croyde, the River Culm, the River Teign, Treable Farm, and Trusham.

The other major part of the book consists of an extensive Gazetteer, but this is where things start to become contentious. The full title of this part is "Gazetteer of Celtic Names in England (except Cornwall)", and in the introductory remarks, the 'ground rules' are laid down as to what (in the authors' opinion) constitutes a Celtic place name. They explain that some words were clearly 'borrowed' into English at an early date (either nationally or regionally), so were not considered to be Brittonic place name elements. Such 'borrowed' elements included: Combe or Cumb (except when found in Cumbrian place names), Dun, Pol, Tor and Pen. So here we have the explanation as to why only 10% of Devon's place names are considered to be Celtic in origin.

However, their logic seems to be fatally flawed, as it appears to run as follows:-
Devon, in common with all regions of England, apart from Cornwall and (to a lesser extent) Cumbria, were conquered and settled (in overwhelming numbers) by the Continental Invaders. Therefore instances of the more common Celtic name elements found in such areas should be considered to be borrowings into English, and thus essentially English in origin. Therefore the resulting low percentage of true Celtic place names found in areas such as Devon, indicates the extent to which Devon was overwhelmingly re-populated by the Invaders, and thus the low percentage of Celtic survival.
I think it is clear how the authors start off by making an unsubstantiated basic assumption, and then follow a logic trail, which ends up 'verifying' that initial assumption. The flaws in such a circular argument are readily apparent to anyone with scientific training, but apparently not to linguistics specialists.

To be fair to the authors, much of the research work, which led to their conclusions, was conducted prior to the very recent findings in the field of human genetics, which have comprehensively demolished the foundations (i.e. the unsubstantiated basic assumptions) on which their circular argument is based. However, one would have thought that they would have been familiar with the increasing weight of historical and archaeological evidence which has been amassed since the 1950s, which throws a lot of doubt on the old Victorian notions of mass Saxon invasions and settlements in the South of England. Also, their basic assumption often leads to the absurd conclusion that two identical place names, a few miles either side of the Tamar have different origins (as pointed out in an earlier post from Ozzie Exile). Such an explanation would also not explain the very high incidence of elements such as 'Combe' in Devon , compared with neighbouring counties (as pointed out by Coref in this forum).

So as not to end on a critical note, I should point out that I found the Glossary of Elements section, which follows the Gazetteer in the book, to be very useful in helping to unravel some of the more obscure place names.

Plymouth Exile

The logic that such names as 'Pol', 'Pen', 'Lan' and 'Combe' should be excluded from the definition of Celtic place names (outside of Cornwall, Wales and Cumbria) seems to fly in the face of logic.

Why would you logically stop at the Cornish, Cumbrian, or Welsh borders? - and if you choose not to do so, but rather extend the rules the other way (eg into those regions) - then (apparently) Cornwall becomes a lot less Celtic.

"By the names Tre, Pol and Pen shall you know the Cornishmen" makes little sense if you excise this rule only because of the Tamar. Two out of three of these 'rules' suddenly become Anglo-Saxon words. Right?

The argument that certain Celtic names such as combe, pen, pol, dun etc.. were adopted into the Anglo-Saxon language during the early period of conquest of the Celtic regions would suggest that (following the boundary that encompasses that adoption) that these words would suddenly become commonplace throughout the remainder of Saxon occupation

However, as seen in Coref's earlier analysis, this is not true.

The further south and west you travel the more prevalent you find 'combe' in place names. It is far more common in place names in Devon than anywhere else, and whilst also found (in lesser numbers) in Dorset and Somerset, it is found only VERY occaisionally further east - such as in Wiltshire, Hampshire, etc..

The logic that Anglo-Saxons chose to 'slowly integrate' these words of language into their own lacks credibility. They either adopted the words or they did not. They would not have said 'we will acccept three words in this 'county', and thirty three over there'.

Also the logic that the hilly terrain of Devon means that the term 'combe' is not used more widely in counties to our east is also falacious. The Saxons had their own word for steep sided valleys, and it is 'hop' (according to Joseph Biddulph's "A Handbook of Westcountry Brythonic") and this is found around the Mendips where celtic names are less prevalent (but a few do still prevail)

Far more reasonable is the theory that there were (at least) parallel populations of Celt and Saxon, and that the relative proportion of those Celtic names in place-name usage reflects the increasing proportion of Celtic peoples as one heads South-West.

Perhaps it also indicates a predominantly Celtic population that was still assimilating the 'invading' Saxon language at the time that place names became fixed (often around the time of the Norman conquest).

So - I suggest that Messrs Coates and Breeze have a quick rethink.

I don't think Messrs Coates and Breeze are the only ones who need to rethink their logic, as there are numerous references to other academic works in the book, which also begin by making the same assumptions. I have picked out an excerpt from the study on "Crediton and the River Creedy":-

"Creedy, then provides interesting evidence for Celtic speech in Devon. Creedy must have been borrowed by English before the late seventh century, because the English saint Boniface was supposedly born in Crediton in about 675 (he is known to have gone to school in Exeter). Bt that date the dialects of Brittonic in this region did not have long to survive, since the independence of Devon ended in 710, when Ine of Wessex fought the British king, Gerent. Celtic speech in Devon must thereafter have soon come to an end (Jackson 1953: 206)."

The reference is to:-

"Language and History in Early Britain", by Kenneth H. Jackson, Edinburgh University Press (1953).

'If it was believed to be true in 1953, then it must be correct' seems to have been the opinion of Andrew Breeze, who was the author of this study. One could only reach such a conclusion if:-

(a) After the battle of 710, the British population of Devon had been massacred, or
(b) The battle of 710 had resulted in the entire British population of Devon fleeing into Cornwall, or
(c) After the battle of 710, the entire British population of Devon had abandoned their language in favour of Anglo-Saxon, and had thus become 'linguistically' indistinguishable from Anglo-Saxons. If this was the case, then it is strange how this did not occur following the Anglo-Saxon conquest of Cornwall, or the English conquest of Wales.

There is, of course, incontrovertible evidence that none of these things happened. If they had, then:-

(1) Who were the 'Wealcynn' in Devon, mentioned in Alfred the Great's will (190 years later in 900AD)?
(2) Where did the people (recognisable as Britons), who Athelstan evicted from Exeter (over 200 years later in 926AD), come from?
(3) Where did the Celtic peoples (which current genetic evidence tells us are currently living in Devon) come from?

Clearly therefore, the assumption of 'borrowings' of Brittonic place name elements into Anglo-Saxon, as the explanation for their frequency of occurrence in Devon place names can be dismissed as being without foundation. Unfortunately, we are left with the legacy of this muddled thinking, which has resulted in children in Devon schools still being taught a grossly inaccurate account of their history. This, of course, carries through into adulthood, so the vast majority of the population wrongly believes that the Anglo-Saxons were primarily their ancestors. This state of affairs must suit the Cornish separatists down to the ground.

From 1972 to 1986 I taught at Tamar School, since swallowed up by DHS Boys, and I remember we once had a talk from the broadcaster Bill Best Harris on the topic of local names. Pennycomequick (is it still there?) derived as I recall from Pen y cwm cuick, something about a stream at the head of a valley. There were plenty of other examples, and somewhere I think I have his book about place names.

David,

I attended DHS (Boys) from 1954 to 1961, at the same time as Bill Best Harris's son, and I lived in Stuart Road, Pennycomequick. Yes, Pennycomequick is still there. As far as I can tell, the derivation is from the old Devonian Brythonic (Celtic) 'Pen y cum gwyk'. 'Pen' means 'Head', 'y' means 'of the', 'cum' means 'valley' (eqivalent to Welsh 'cwm' and 'combe' in modern Devon), and 'gwyk' meaning either 'settlement' or 'creek'. Thus the name would either be 'Settlement at the head of the valley' or (perhaps more likely) 'Head of the creek valley'. Stonehouse creek originally extended all the way to Pennycomequick, before part of it was reclaimed to form Victoria Park. As you say, there are many more names of Celtic derivation in Plymouth and the rest of Devon.

Plymouth Exile

Yes, that was it - "settlement", eqivalent to "ham" etc. The creek was filled in during my time at the school, which meant we could have sports days there instead of at the Brickfields.

You may be interested in this.

According to a (Australian) newspaper you can now have your own DNA tested to determine your 'genetic' family profile.

The article was headed 'getting in touch with your inner Viking' and apparently it works by analysing your DNA to see which of the european 'clans' you are descended from.

Analysis is possible both on the mothers and fathers background (via the maternal mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosone respectively).

It seems that at the moment they can only test the Y chromosone to determine whether you have Viking ancestry, but presumably there is scope for extending this to other groupings (ie Celts). This part of the analysis is done via the 'Y' chromosone.

Apparently you have a home testing kit sent to you, use a scraper to take a sample of cells from the inside of your cheek, and send it (and the money) off - and within 1-2 months you get posted the results.

The cost? - about £150.

The link provided by the newspaper was www.oxfordancestors.com

Ozzie Exile et al,

I had come across Oxfordancestors.com before, but before anyone rushes out to use their services, just a note of caution about DNA testing. Whilst it is useful for the statistical determination of population origins (as used in the Blood of the Vikings Series), it can be very misleading for an individual. The Y-Chromosome part of the sample investigates the male line, i.e. your father, his father, his father etc. The mitochondrial DNA part of the sample investigates the female line, i.e. your mother, her mother, her mother etc. This leaves all the remainder of your ancestors unaccounted for, e.g. your father's mother and her parents, your paternal grandfathers mother and her parents, your mother's father and his parents etc. So theoretically, you could be 99.99% Celtic, but still come out of the tests as 100% Viking (or vice versa).

I think it is better to rely on the statistical data. If your ancestors, for several generations, came from the same general area (for instance, within 20 miles of Totnes), and statistical DNA analysis for the South Devon area showed the population to be 80% Celtic and 20% Teutonic, then you could be fairly sure that that statistic also applied to you, with a fair degree of certainty. If anyone tells you that they are 100% Celtic or 100% Viking, don't believe them, as such a person does not exist even in deepest Ireland or deepest Norway.

Anyone interested in this subject would probably find the following web site, and the links from it, quite fascinating.

http://www25.brinkster.com/humanraces/calc/haplo_data.asp?dbname=ychroms


Plymouth Exile

I think the powers that be have chosen to omit information about Devon's celtic past and have decided on a history which suits their own homogenious interests. Devon has more celt than is portrayed in history books. Almost all the rivers in Devon are from celtic words. I believe that many Devon place names were changed by the ruling class many years ago. Cornish names were saved by norman conquest, and their isolation. In my area of Devon their are farms which begin with the prefix "Tre", you have place names like Ide, Dunchideock, Dawlish (Black stream), Penquid (Pen coed). The first part of the word Cullompton comes from the old Devonian word for Knot (referring to the shape of the river).
Many celtic words are hidden or have been given riduculos English meanings.

Davyth

An acquaintence of mine has a framed map of Devon.

On Dartmoor is shown the words 'The Damnonii', which obviously relates to the Celtic tribe from which Devon's name (and people) derive.

The map is only a print, but is dated as 1648 by Johan Blaeu, and is titled Atlas Novus. There is a similar one (same date, same author) for Cornwall.

I do not know the authenticity of this map although a quick search on the web indicates a number of references.

Perhaps evidence that as recently as the 17th Century there was (at least memory of) survival of that Celtic tribe as a separate group. Interestingly it is associated with Dartmoor which I have heard was where the Celts retained authority longest.

An acquaintence of mine has a framed map of Devon.

On Dartmoor is shown the words 'The Damnonii', which obviously relates to the Celtic tribe from which Devon's name (and people) derive.

The map is only a print, but is dated as 1648 by Johan Blaeu, and is titled Atlas Novus. There is a similar one (same date, same author) for Cornwall.

I do not know the authenticity of this map although a quick search on the web indicates a number of references.

Perhaps evidence that as recently as the 17th Century there was (at least memory of) survival of that Celtic tribe as a separate group. Interestingly it is associated with Dartmoor which I have heard was where the Celts retained authority longest.

I received an extract from an interesting book recently.

The book is authored by S Baring-Gould and from the copy I cannot be sure of the title. One page is headed 'People, Race, Dialect, Population' and the other is 'Cornwall'.

Anyhow, the section talks about the Celtic language and staes that "In the reign of Edward 1, Cornish was spoken in the South Hams of Devonshire but in the sixteenth centiry it was dying out even in West Cornwall....."

Now Edward 1 was King of England from the late thirteenth century until the early fourteenth, so this completely dismisses any theory that the Celtic language died out at the time of Athelstan etc...

The suggestion was made that Edward 1 tried to outlaw the language, although his success in so doing is not certain.

Interesting!!!!

This is not the first evidence there has been concerning the perpetuation of Brythonic Celtic speech in Devon well into medieval times. I have also read of traditions, among previous generations of Devonians, that the Celtic tongue was still in use in the 'British' quarter of Exeter well into the 13th Century, and that in the more remote areas of Devon, the remnants of the language were still in use, in the form a number of dialect words, well into the 16th Century (i.e. Elizabethan times).

This should not come as a surprise to anyone who has studied the decline and demise of languages. They do not get extinguished like a light bulb, but gradually fade away. The myth of 'a last speaker' of an extinct language is just that, a myth. There are almost certainly a number of words in current use as Devon dialect, which are corruptions of old Brythonic words.

Plymouth Exile

Following recent complaints to the Mr Flag organisation, from extreme Cornish Nationalists, complaining that Devonians have no right to call themselves Celtic, I have been examining their logic, and I have concluded that the Nationalists have managed to generate a paradox, and it would be interesting to see how they could resolve this. The paradox is:-

1. The Nationalists insist that Devonians are English and not Celtic, because Devon was conquered and extensively settled by the Saxons. When faced with the conclusive scientific (DNA) evidence that the vast majority of Devonians are descendants of the Ancient Britons (Celts), they are forced to admit that this is so, but then claim that Devonians are definitely English (and not Celtic) because they do not have a ‘living’ Celtic language.

2. The Cornish Nationalists have been protesting that English Heritage signs at ancient monuments (dolmen, menhirs, stone circles etc.) are illegal, as these monuments are not the heritage of the English, because the English did not arrive in Britain until well after the monuments were constructed.

3. As the Nationalists have been forced to admit that Devonians are the descendents of the Bronze and Iron Age People who built these monuments, but also insist that Devonians are English (see 1. above), then they must logically admit that the monuments are the heritage of the ‘English’ Devonians, and therefore their initial claim that the monuments are not 'English' Heritage must be wrong.

4. The only other alternative they have is to stick to their claim that the monuments are not the heritage of the English, but this would logically imply that the Devonians cannot therefore be English, and that their insistence that they are must be incorrect.

I have used Devonians as an example, but this would equally apply to other English counties where the population is predominantly of Celtic descent. The total of such people would far outnumber the Cornish.

I would love to see how John Angarrack, Pol Hodge, Jim Pengelly and Co would attempt to wriggle out of that one.

Plymouth Exile

A few weeks ago someone (London Devonish) asked me whether Dewnans would ever have been pronounced with the 'w' as a 'v'.

I didn't think so, but one of our Cornish Nationalist "colleagues" contributed the following (amongst som eother less inciteful stuff)

"Devon's name certainly preserves (in heavily corrupted form) the name of the former Celtic kingdom of Dumnonia which included Cornwall, Devon and part of Somerset (in which a great many Celtic place names remain but, in spite of this, no-one would seriously claim that Somerset remains Celtic). In Welsh, this name was rendered as Dyfnaint which was Anglicised in the late 9th century to "Defena, Defenascir". "Dewnans" is Robert Morton Nance's mistaken interpretation of Edward Lhuyd's "Deunanz" (1700) in which "u" represents "v", i.e. "Devnans", in line with the Welsh Dyfnaint but including the Middle Cornish softening of the final "t" to "d"."

It certainly bridges a gap between the 'Dyfneint' of Welsh and the 'Dewnans' of Cornish.

A Cornish Nationalist criticising Robert Morton Nance - whatever next????

While looking up a reference in W.G. Hoskin’s standard work “Devon”, I stumbled across a section entitled “Settlements in 1066”. It discusses the Domesday entries for Devon, but also considers the large number of old place names not included in D.B.:-

“The more one studies the topography of a small piece of countryside in detail the more one is convinced that hundreds of small settlements which are first recorded in the 13th Century had in fact existed much earlier. It is significant, for example, that many of the undoubtedly Celtic place-names do not appear in the records until the assize rolls of 1219-1249, or the Book of Fees in 1242, or the early 13th Century fines. Clearly, these places were not given Celtic names in the 12th or 13th Centuries: they had already existed for centuries but Domesday includes them silently under another heading.”

Hoskin continues:-

“If this is so, the map of Devon settlements should have more than two and a half times as many names on it as Domesday allows us to record. And we must suppose too, that a considerable proportion of these small unrecorded places were Celtic in origin ………. How else can one account for the high proportion of pre-Saxon stock who still populate Devon ……….”

As usual, Hoskins is very astute, in that he recognises that a ‘high proportion of Devonians are of Ancient British (Celtic) origin, but I suspect that even he would have been surprised at the very high percentage revealed by modern DNA surveys. This leads to another intriguing possible explanation for the large number of Celtic-element place names not included in Domesday, which first appear in 13th Century records. If we consider the persistent (but uncorroborated) stories of Celtic language survival into the 14th Century, and maybe beyond, it opens up the possibility that many of these ‘new’ Celtic place names were indeed post Domesday foundations, in areas where the ‘Old Devonian’ Celtic language was still in daily use.

Plymouth Exile

Celtic names not prevalent on Mendip?

Is not 'Mendip' = Mynydd?
Is not 'Priddy' (the only village on high Mendip) a sheep pasture?

Butcombe, Winscombe, Burrington Combe spring to mind...

And of course world famous Cheddar (chy dwr) - even after adoption as site of English kings villa.

Oh and Rivers Axe, Yeo, Chew, Frome and Avon ....

I think that Ozzie Exile was referring to the relative density of Celtic Place names in the Mendip area compared with West Somerset and Devon. You are correct that there are still a considerable number of such names in East Somerset.

Plymouth Exile

I have been doing further research into the possibility of the Celtic tongue surviving in Devon well beyond the commonly supposed date of its extinction, and have come up with some interesting references.

Firstly, I found the following extract from the writings of J.R.R. Tolkein (of Lord of the Rings fame):-

“The use of wealh, apart from the legal status to which surviving elements of the conquered population were no doubt reduced, must always have implied recognition of British origin. Such elements, though incorporated in the domain of an English or Saxon lord, must always have remained “not English”, and with this difference preservation in a measure of their British speech may have endured longer than is supposed.”
- J. R. R. Tolkien, English and Welsh

This seems to back up my own theory that when the Saxons referred to the ‘Wealcynn’ (such as in Alfred’s will), they must have recognised that the native Devonians were Britons (Celts), and the only way that they could have differentiated them from the Saxons was by language and customs. This would imply that the Celtic tongue was still thriving at this time and also a quarter of a Century later when Athelstan evicted the Britons from Exeter. As we now know that the Britons must have constituted a very large majority of the Devon population at that time (from the DNA evidence), it is therefore not unreasonable to suppose that the Celtic tongue continued in daily use for some considerable time after these events. I would therefore be very surprised if it had become extinct by the time of the Norman Conquest (just over a Century later), in the absence of any specific historic catalyst to hasten its demise.

The hard-line Cornish Nationalists deny this of course, but when it suits their purpose, some of them do add further weight to this theory. I have found a very interesting debate/argument between a Cornish Nationalist and a representative of Wikipedia (an online encyclopaedia), in which the Nationalist states:-

“Cornwall as a contemporary geographical entity is entirely different from Cornwall (historico-geographical entity). Cornwall once stretched as far east as Bristol, with Cornish language prevalent in parts of Devon immediately anterior to the Prayer Book Rebellion.”

This seems to add credence to the accounts I have read in the past that remnants of the Celtic language were still in use in the remoter parts of Devon into the 16th Century (the Prayer Book Rebellion was in 1549). We also see in this quote that the Nationalists claim that Cornwall once stretched as far East as Bristol. Anyone correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that was the Kingdom of Dumnonia, not Cornwall.

The rest of the web page also makes very interesting reading. The URL is:-

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cornwall

I have also found a Nationalist account where the writer claims that Wessex never had jurisdiction over any of the land to the West of Exeter (which he referred to as Cornish). This also seems to be a departure from Nationalist orthodoxy, where the Western boundary of Wessex is said to be firmly fixed at the Tamar. Another Nationalist (from Cornish Solidarity this time) also makes claims of Cornish lands to the East of the Tamar, when he states:-

“The Cornish are a formerly independent nation, finally conquered by Athelstan, King of West Saxons, in 936 AD. He misappropriated all Cornish lands east of the River Tamar and established the boundary of Cornwall for all time as the East Bank of the Tamar. “

However, he also commits the ‘heinous’ crime of departing from the ‘party line’ by admitting that Cornwall was ‘conquered’ by the West Saxons. The URL is:-

http://www.cornwallgb.com/cornwall_cornishsolidarity.html

I have had to revise my previously held view that all Cornish Nationalists sing from the same Hymn Book. It seems that ‘dissident’ statements are often tolerated as long as they suit the overall cause.

There seem to be so many unauthenticated references to the Celtic language persisting in Devon into the period 13th to 16th Century, that one feels that there is probably some truth to it (otherwise where do the references come from). However, I have not yet seen any definitive documentary evidence. Does anyone know of any? If so, please share it with us on this board.

Plymouth Exile

I have just read an interesting article entitled "Why the Anglo-Saxons did not become more British"

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0293/462_115/62980101/print.jhtml

Although it mentions Devon only in passing it did raise some interesting points.

One point is that it refers to nineteenth century Victorian "Anglo-Saxonist' Edward Freeman, who whilst extolling the virtues of the Teutonic race, suggests that those in Devon are English 'only by adoption'.

Another is reference to our friend Prof T H Huxley (who was a contemporary of Freeman, but opposed his views) and the fact that "Huxley's arguments are heavily dependent on the impressive research (based on the widescale recording of hair- and eye-colour) of the physical anthropologist John Beddoe". Huxley stated that "Devonians are as little Anglo-Saxon as Northumbrians are Welsh".

The whole gist of the argument is that the population of Southern Britain remained genetically Celtic but that the Saxon/English culture dominated that of the Britons, and the Celts quickly adopted Saxon language and names for fear of retribution/bias etc... Perhaps this can be described as a form of 'cultural cringe'.

This made me think that in Devon there are numerous church dedications to Celtic Saints (St Petroc being one, but there are many others .... such as St Nectan). Devon is unusual in having so many 'Celtic dedications', although Cornwall does also.

If the 'cultural cringe' was such a significant factor in Devon I would have thought that the people would have changed their dedication to one of a Saxon saint, or at least a biblical figure.

This obviously didn't happen in Devon. People still paid homage to Celtic saints, and I doubt that this would have happened had not the people been comfortable in such an identification.

We could also argue that 'most Devon place names in the tenth century are Old English rather than Celtic', as we already know that a huge number are anything but, unless you assume that combe, torr, etc.. etc.. are English words (which they are not)