h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

The suggestion that the Devon Celtic peoples rapidly gave up their language in the ninth/tenth century to accept the customs of their Saxon overlords is interesting.

However, if that is so why did they not then rapidly adopt French when the Normans gained control in the eleventh century??

I suspect that the population did (at least in part). Perhaps they were multi-lingual, able to speak Celtic, English and French as needs must.

As the Celtic language would have been the least 'prestigious' of these three (in socio-economic standing) it stands to reason that it would gradually decline.

I thought I would share this webpage with you

http://www.festivaldeortigueira.com/english/paises.htm

I know that the Galicians are struggling with a 'foreign language' in trying to describe Celtic nations and I don't mean to be critical, but I love the wording.

Oh yes - and Devon gets a mention.

The Cornish Flag is shown in negative (?) and the wording seems to suggest that it applies to Devon as well. Devon is specifically mentioned and Domnonee is a region of Brittany named after Devon. I love the phrase that we are 'thoughtlessly Celtic'.

Other Celtic nations don't escape either, as in the following description of Wales that it "isn't a valueless part of the United Kingdom" (nice of them) and the Irish have "never forgot that they were Welshmen' (this may be news to the Irish).

I am not sure where that takes us, but I love it!

here are a couple of websites that I came across that you might find of interest

The first is about Devon, Dartmoor and its folklore

http://www.worldoffroud.com/faeries/about/main/devon.cfm

The second is simply a comparison of how various dialects pronounce the numerals 1-10, and Devon is one of those used.

http://members.tripod.com/~rjschellen/EnglishNums.htm

What I found here was the similarities and differences, between Devon and (say) Gloucestershire and the interesting Irish Yola dialect.

It seems Matthew the Bard is not the only Devon author writing about Devon's Celtic past.

I have seen in the paper that Fay Sampson has launched a book (called The Silent Fort) which is set in the Celto-Roman era in and around Exeter/Keresk.

It may be that whoever produces this book might also be interesting in Matthews texts - unless he has found somebody else in the meantime.

I have just received a copy of an article called ‘The Celt and The Teuton in Exeter’ by Thomas Kerslake. It dates from 1873 and is out of print and copyright but a copy can be obtained by contacting Devon County Council Local Studies.

The article is an investigation of specifically where the Celts and Saxons lived within the ancient walled City of Exeter. The author claims this is possible apparently because the basic layout of the City has little changed from Roman times.

He bases his research upon on previous writings by Malsebury, Palgrave and Freeman and makes some interesting conclusions.

Firstly he states that until the reign of Athelstan (tenth century) the Celts and Saxons lived as ‘two nations’ in a state of commercial truce within the walls of the same city, with the Celts retaining allegiance to their own nation and Saxons to theirs, and with the Celts and Saxons living (by and large) in their own areas.

He states that this state of affairs existed because the city was dependent on the support of and supplies from outside the city, which was under Celtic control.

Based largely upon parish dedications within the old walled city and including those to St Petrock, St Kerian, St Pancras, and St Paul he concludes that the Celts inhabited a contiguous part of the city – “an unbroken cluster” specifically running from the city centre to its north and including “the entire possession of (city’s) north gate”.

Outside the city walls the Celtic dedications continue with the Parish of St Davids “which whilst outside the walls covered the whole of the British district within”, and then on to St Cyricius (or Curig) and St Julitta.

The author states that this was the situation prior to the expulsion of the Celts by Athelstan from the walled city. [It is written elsewhere that the people relocated only to just outside the walls – namely the St Davids area referred to above].

However the author states that there is further evidence of a Celtic population within the city walls, and this time just inside the western gate. This area was known as ‘Little Britain’ and the author does not doubt that this was ‘the place of refuge conceded to the …. banished race who accepted tolerance … after the expulsion of their nation’.

The author states that this area continued to be known as ‘Little Britain’ until the beginning of his century (the nineteenth).

This article provides additional evidence not only of Celtic survival after the arrival of the Saxons but also after the reign of Athelstan. Kerslake does not even consider that they were expelled out of Devon, just from the city walls, and then with some respite.

There is one other snippet from this article. Looking beyond the city walls he comments that “the Britons then, AS NO DOUBT THEY DO NOW (caps are mine), peopled the inland mountainous highland districts, including Dartmoor and Exmoor, and extending eastwards far into Somersetshire”.

Therefore the author believed that the Celts still peopled the land of Devon in the nineteenth century.

I would like to add my conjecture to this wealth of knowledge, namely the unaired question of WHY Athelstan tried to expel the Celts from the walled city. I guess that the answer may be because the Celts were a large group effectively in control of one of the city gates. In Cornwall the local Celtic population had on occasion aligned themselves with the Vikings/Danes, and if their Exeter compatriots were to do the same the integrity of the city could not have been guaranteed. In short – Athelstan did not completely trust them – so he forced them to relocate outside the walls

One last personal comment – if the Celts were expelled from the city by Athelstan how and why did the Celtic parish dedication remain as they were. I would have expected that the new residents would have rededicated the parishes to their own Saxon saints. Obviously this did not happen.

I came across a website which recorded common christian or given names in the period 1450-1650.

What I found interesting is that there a large number of names which were associated with Cornwall, and a lesser number associated with Devon AND Cornwall, Devon, or more generally the South West.

Although similar specific identification appeared for Wales and Scotland I could find scarcely a reference to another region of England or another English county (except a couple for Yorkshire).

Okay - so what were they?

Those soley associated with Devon were Arminell, Richord (yes - with an 'o'), Pancras, Rochele, Sabine, Sidwell and Urith.

Those associated with Devon and Cornwall were Wilmot, Appelin, Constantine, Hannibal, Beaton and Pentecost.

There are many solely associated with Cornwall but they include Cay, Digory, Emanuel, Erth, Eulalia, Gerrance, Urin, Radegund, Jennifer, Savery, Pascoe, Tamsin, Lowdie and Methuselah.

Those associated with the southwest generally are Dunes, Denance, Deanes, Agnes, Richarda, Richenza (and varieties thereof) and Tamar.

Now I find the mix of these names interesting.

One thing I did note. In the 18th Century there was a debate in the papers between Professor Thomas Huxley (who claimed that Devonians are as little Anglo Saxon as Northumbrians are Welsh) and a critic who called himself 'a Devonshire man'.

The latter claimed that christain names supported his view that the Cornish were celts (because they favoured Jennifer from the Celtic Guinevere) whilst Devonians were teutonic (and referenced the common use of Herman).

Well, in the period of two centuries before this it would seem he is right about Cornwall, but there is no mention of Herman being common in Devon (and I have done other searches which do not indicate it particularly common).

In fact the names above have a number of Celtic origin.

Perhaps we can deduce that our critic either did not know Devon very well - or was called Herman!!

We appear to have received some open minded 'attention' from some (US based???) people of celtic origin.

http://groups.msn.com/CelticOrigins/messages.msnw

There have been discussions under a Devon header (under the General Message Board), but they have just recently set up a separate 'Devonian Topics' Message Board because of this interest.

Please feel free to contribute.

If you do 'registration' can be a pain - I would suggest that once you register you wait 15 minutes, log out entirely, and then log on again - and then use...


Cheers

It has been said (but certainly not by me) that some ‘Celtic’ words used in Devon place names are not in fact Celtic at all, because they are words, which were ‘borrowed’ into Old English (Anglo-Saxon). These include Combe, Dun and Tor. As these are three of the most common words used in Devon place names, it is important to clear this matter up, and a book that I have been reading may throw some light on this. The book is:-

“The Landscape of Place-Names” by Margaret Gelling and Ann Cole.

Gelling states that Ekwall (in 1960) identified 42 ‘combe’ names in Somerset, 36 in Devon and 26 in Dorset, making this region the one with by far the highest density of such names, but Gelling admits that if lesser ‘combe’ names are included, the number in Devon rises dramatically to the point where only ‘tun’ names are more frequent. She (Gelling) identifies the word ‘cumb’ as being Old English, and mentions that it is either a word which has been borrowed from the Primitive Celtic word ‘cumbo’ (Welsh ‘cwm’, Cornish ‘cum’, meaning ‘valley’), or is derived from an original Old English word ‘cumb’, meaning ‘cup’ (thus referring to cup-shaped valleys). As virtually all the ‘combe’ names, which she identifies, are indeed ‘cup-shaped’, she tends to favour this derivation.

However, she does admit to two main exceptions. In Cumbria she notes that ‘cumb’ is usually associated with other identifiably Celtic descriptors, such as in ‘Cumcrook’ or ‘Cumdivock’, so agrees that these names are Celtic in origin. The other county where she admits that the ‘combe’ names do not fit her theory is Devon, as here they are used to describe any valley (apart from gorge or ravine shaped valleys), and not just cup-shaped valleys. Gelling tries to account for this by postulating that Anglo-Saxon settlers who had migrated to Devon from Dorset or Somerset may have got so used to ‘combe’ names in those counties, that they had forgotten that they only applied to cup-shaped valleys, and had therefore applied them to all valleys when giving names to places in Devon.

I regard such reasoning as being seriously flawed. Firstly, if the ‘cup-shaped’ theory is correct, why should the Anglo-Saxons have remembered this throughout the rest of England, but then suddenly forgotten it when they entered Devon. Secondly, we now know that the relatively few Anglo-Saxons who did settle in Devon would have found a much larger number of Britons (Celts) already in residence, and it would be stretching credulity to believe that these Anglo-Saxons would have re-named the places where the Celtic Devonian majority continued to live, especially as many of those dwelling in valleys would have already been called ‘Combe’ (or ‘Coombe) by the Devonian Britons. Of course, the Anglo-Saxons (and later the Normans) may have applied their own form of spelling to the Celtic pronunciation of such names. Thirdly, the Primitive Celtic word ‘cumbo’ did not just apply to cup-shaped valleys, so by accepting a Celtic derivation for the Devon ‘combe’ names, there is no need to concoct an unlikely story about the Anglo-Saxons forgetting the meaning of the word as they crossed the Devon border.

In order to try to understand why Gelling is loathe to abandon the Old English ‘cup-shaped’ derivation for the vast number of Devon ‘combe’ names, it is necessary to examine the context in which such names were used. Firstly, most of them have the word ‘combe’ at the end of the name (such as in Babbacombe or Widdecombe) and not (as would be correct Celtic usage) at the beginning, as in Welsh names such as Cwmbran (Valley of Crows) or Cwmystwyth (Valley of the River Ystwyth). Having stated this, there are of course exceptions in Devon, such as Combe Martin and Combpyne, in which the word ‘Combe’ appears at the beginning of the name. Secondly many of the descriptive prefixes are recognisable English words such as ‘wide’ or ‘small’, and it could be argued that such English words would not be used as descriptors if the names were of Celtic origin.

I believe that there exists a perfectly logical explanation for this, which does not involve the unlikely derivation of the Devon ‘combe’ names from a ‘hypothetical’ Old English root. Coates and Breeze, in their book “Celtic Voices, English Places”, identify many Devon place names as being ‘Partly Brittonic’ (Celtic), which are composed of both Celtic and English parts, such as ‘Nympton’ from ‘nymet’ (Celtic, ‘sacred’), plus ‘tun’ (Old English, ‘settlement’), so objections on the basis of the names consisting of a mix of languages can be dismissed right away. But the ‘Partly Brittonic’ names identified by Coates and Breeze, have Celtic parts, which are definitely Brittonic and not controversial like ‘combe’. However, when the Britons originally established settlements in valleys, the name ‘Combe’ would have been perfectly adequate to identify such a settlement and describe its location (in a valley). In those times, communications were such as to not require any identifier to be added to the name, as people did not travel more than a few miles from home then, so any other ‘Combe’ named settlement would have been too far away to be confused with theirs. In fact we can see evidence for this in the still large number of farms, which are called just ‘Coombe’ (with no added identifier).

However, when (centuries later) better travel and communications meant that the name ‘Coombe’ or ‘Combe’ was insufficient to identify a particular settlement, descriptors would have needed to be added in some cases. As by this time the native Celtic language would have been in decline in favour of English, it stands to reason that a number of these descriptors would have been English words added to the front of the existing Celtic ‘combe’, as was normal in the English language. Thus I feel that it is most likely that ‘combe’ names are of Celtic derivation, but sometimes with a later English identifier to make the name more specific. In other cases, the identifier may have been Celtic, but has been corrupted in such a way that the original Celtic meaning is no longer identifiable (this phenomenon can often be observed in Cornish names). These explanations do not involve any of the pitfalls, which the Old English ‘cup-shaped’ derivation leads us into. Another strong argument in favour of Celtic derivations is the often distinctly Celtic format of the names, i.e. ‘**** y combe’, such as in ‘Pennycombe’ and ‘Blannicombe’, where the Celtic ‘y’ sound (meaning ‘of the’) is evident.

Moving on to ‘dun’ names, Gelling dismisses the notion that such names were ‘borrowed’ from the Celtic word meaning a hill fort, as she has identified many ‘dun’ and ‘don’ names which are nowhere near such landscape features. However, she does recognise that most of the ‘dun’ names in England are large villages or towns on broad plateaus, so she postulates the existence of an Old English word (of unknown origin) meaning ‘plateau shaped hill’, and then sets forth to derive all English ‘dun’, ‘don’ and ‘down’ names from this ‘invented’ word. Firstly, I consider it to be a dubious practice to invent new words to explain place names. Secondly, the instances of ‘dun’ names in Devon do not fit this theory. Such Devon names as Dunchideock, Dunkeswell, Dunsford and Dunterton are all near to known ancient hill forts or earthworks, so the Celtic derivation works fine, without the need for any ‘invented’ Old English words. Actually, Gelling admits that the ‘chideock’ part of the name ‘Dunchideock’ is Celtic ‘ced-jog’ meaning ‘wooded’, but still insists that the ‘dun’ part is Old English. On the other hand, Coates and Breeze have listed Dunchideock as being wholly Brittonic (Celtic), being derived from ‘din-ced-jog’, meaning ‘wooded hill fort’. Ekwall also ascribes a partly Celtic name to Dunterton; ‘din-tref’ (hill fort) plus ‘ton’ (farm). Even the word ‘tun’ does not necessarily imply an Old English origin, as there is a Cornish word ‘ton’, meaning ‘meadow’.

When ‘dun’ appears in the ‘don’ or ‘down’ format in Devon, and is used in names with no obvious association with hill forts or earthworks, interpretation is a little more difficult, but there is still no need to resort to an ‘invented’ Old English name, as there is a perfectly good Celtic word (Welsh ‘-dyn’) meaning ‘enclosure’, which always appears at the end of place names (just as ‘don’ or ‘down’ usually do in Devon).

The third of the supposed ‘borrowed’ words is ‘tor’. Many dictionaries define ‘tor’ as an Old English word meaning ‘pointed hill’, and it is true that this description fits many of the instances of ‘tor’ names east of Devon, such as Glastonbury Tor (Somerset) or Mam Tor (Derbyshire). However in Devon, ‘tor’ names do not refer to hills (whether pointed or not), but to the granite rock towers, which often surmount the Dartmoor hills, although they are not necessarily at the tops of hills (Vixen Tor is in fact in the Valley of the River Walkham). This would almost certainly rule out the Old English derivation for the Devon tors. However, the Celtic word ‘tor’ (Welsh ‘twr’, or Gaelic ‘torr’) means ‘rock pile’ or ‘rock tower’, which perfectly describes the Dartmoor tors. Further evidence for this being the correct derivation for the word ‘tor’, comes from the island of Mull, in the Inner Hebrides, where the name ‘torr’ is common, particularly in the southwest of the island where numerous granite outcrops (similar to those on Dartmoor) occur, having names such as ‘Torr Mor’ (‘large rock stack’ in Gaelic). Now nobody is going to convince me that these names are Anglo-Saxon (Old English) in origin, and they describe the exact same type of rock formation that is found in the Dartmoor tors.

In all three cases where ‘borrowed’ or ‘original(?)’ Old English words have been suggested as the derivations for Devon place names, it can be shown that this is most unlikely, and that one needs to look no further than the Brythonic Celtic tongue to find the derivations for ‘combe’, ‘dun’ and ‘tor’ names in Devon.

I think that Plymouth Exile has a good set of thoughts (above) concerning the Celtic elements in Devon placenames.

Certainly the different use of the "combe" word in Devon and the theory of placenames being developed in stages were new to me.



Changing the subject..a little.....

I recently read a book by author Bernard Knight which is set in late twelfth century Devon. Actually there are a whole series based on the 'Crowner John' character.

The book has an interesting and relevant preface, because the author tries to set out the true historical situation in Devon in the late twelfth century. He states

"In the time and place of this story, late twelth century Devon, most people would have spoken Middle English... Many others spoke Western Welsh, later called Cornish, and the ruling classes would have spoken Norman French. The language of the church and virtually all official writing was Latin."

He then acknowledges the historical advice he received from the staff of the Devon record office and of Exeter Central Library, and Professor Nicholas Orme of Exeter University (and others of a legal or ecclesiastical background).

Sadly I found the book itself rather disappointing, and the use of Welsh identities confused me (were they from Wales or from Devon?).

Nevertheless this preface indicates that somewhere in the Devon record office or Exeter Central Library there is additional corroborative evidence of the survival of the Celtic language in Devon - certainly to the end of the twelfth century which is well past the tenth century date that certain Cornish nationalists claim to mark its end.


This thought led me on to some research on the Norman era, and I came across a (relatively unrelated) item on Wales which talked about how the Normans had installed a number of Breton Lords in Wales (who had helped them overcome the Saxons and King Harold) because it was hoped that the Welsh might better accept the lordship of a Celt (who spoke a similar language) to that of a Norman (who were of Viking origin).

So then I looked at the post-Norman lordships granted in Devon, and not surprisingly there were a significant number of Bretons appointments.

Auvrai le Breton had 22 lordships, mostly in Devon, and other Breton Lords given Devon land included Hervey de Hellean, Roald Dubbed, Ralph de Fengeres, and Fulcher.

Of course Bretons who had assisted the Normans were given land in other parts of England, and Normans certainly gave themselves substantial land in Devon, but the proportion of Bretons in Devon appeared high.

As the native Devonians were predominantly Celts (as we now know) this makes a great deal of sense. The Bretons were by and largely of Devonian/Cornish stock only some few generations removed, and with similar a language. Perhaps it was hoped that the Bretons would be better accepted than Normans, or perhaps the Bretons wanted land in Devon because it was their ancient home??

Whether this ploy worked to any degree is uncertain. There was certainly resistance to the invaders in Wales and to some degree in Devon, but nevertheless it certainly appears that William may have recognised the Celtic nature of many Devonians and tried the same tactics on them as he did on our northern Celtic neighbours.

Ozzie Exile,

It is interesting to see that you are gradually managing to home in on the original historical data, upon which the numerous anecdotes of continued Celtic speech in Devon (post Norman Conquest) is almost certainly based. Logically, one might expect there to be some evidence of this.

Although Coates in his introduction to the book “Celtic Voices English Places” hypothesises that the Celtic tongue would have become extinct within two generations of Anglo-Saxon settlement in an area, this can demonstrably be proved to be incorrect in the case of Devon. Although the Saxons were definitely settling in Devon (albeit in relatively small numbers) by 710AD (following the battle between Gerent and Ine), it is clear from historical records that the Celtic language was still in everyday use for at least 200 years after this date.

In 900AD, Alfred the Great’s will referred to Branscombe (East Devon) as “land which he owned among the wealcynn”, and 26 years later Athelstan evicted the Britons (Celts) from Exeter. If the Celtic language had died out within two generations of 710AD (say by 770AD) as Coates suggests, then neither Alfred nor Athelstan would have recognised the Devonians as being wealcynn (foreign folk, or Celts) or Britons (Celts) in 900AD or 926AD respectively, as their use of a Celtic language would have been the only way of distinguishing them from the Saxons at that time.

The Cornish Nationalist contention that all the Devon Celts were evicted from Devon in 936AD can definitely be discounted, as there is no historical evidence for this, and the modern DNA evidence clearly shows that it never happened. As the Celts formed the large majority of the Devon population at that time, and had retained their language following the arrival of a relatively small number of Saxons (c700), there is no reason to suppose that they would have abandoned the language during (or soon after) Athelstan’s reign, so the survival of the language until the Norman Conquest (1066AD) and beyond is most probable. This would correlate well with the numerous tales of the Celtic tongue still being in use in some parts of Devon (e.g. the South Hams) up until the 14th (or even the 16th) Century.

The Celtic word for a river ‘avon’ (Welsh ‘afon’) is very common as a river name in England, where there are numerous instances of ‘River Avon’. However, there is something a bit different about the Devon Avon, which rises in the central peat bogs of Southern Dartmoor and flows into the sea between Bigbury and Bantham, as it has an alternative name of ‘River Aune’. It has been said that this is just ‘Avon’ in the Devon Dialect, and certainly the small town of Aveton Gifford, through which it flows is pronounced locally as ‘Awton Jiffard’. However, a little study of the evolution of the Cornish language reveals that the 12th Century Cornish form of the word for river was ‘Auon’ or ‘Aun’, which is remarkably similar to the Devon river name ‘Aune’. This raises the intriguing possibility that ‘Aune’ is derived from the 12th Century Cornish word ‘auon’ or ‘aun’, which would imply that the Cornish language (or something closely akin to it) was still in use in the South Dartmoor/South Hams district of Devon as late as the 12th Century (at least). As it has been stated elsewhere (by Baring-Gould) that the Celtic tongue survived in the South Hams until the 14th Century, this finding may add some further credibility to that statement.

From what I have seen the evidence seems quite strong that the anglo-saxons and other germanic peoples(franks for instance) had borrowed from the romans something akin to citizenship, in which those who had fought for the king or displayed their loyalty in some way had it granted to them. It may be that those who were expelled by athelstan were simply not english citizens and therefore could not really be trusted to be loyal. If that is the case then many(if not the vast majority) of those "saxons" who remained in the city could have been of british origin and there native language celtic, though most of them would have been at least familiar with old english as a second language. This would explain why the parish dedications to celtic saints remained. It would also explain why the wessex laws eventually discarded the references to rich celts because the upper classes would have gained citizenship earlier than the rest of the population; that is what tended to happen with the romans anyway. So if my theory is correct then wealh(welshman), when spoken of in a legal context, would have implied no more than "non-english citizen". Sound reasonable.

Sorry, I meant: "sound reasonable?"

I think the survival of the celtic language in devon until the norman conquest is more than probable. I have heard that the domesday book claims that there were wiltshire countrymen who spoke some form of celtic when the book was being prepared in around 1085.

I had not heard of the celtic language surviving in Wiltshire until the eleventh century - interesting.

The 'Norman invasion' date is likely to be a critical one for Celtic survival, for the Saxons then lost almost all their authority and power. Very few Saxons survived as titled landovers in William the Conquerers reign - and a number of Celtic names replaced them.

Therefore, if the Celts survived to 1066 culture and peoples intact, then they almost certainly are still there (or here!). The pro-Saxon 'bias' would have disappeared, and whilst it may have been replaced by a 'pro-Norman' one this is unlikely to have been as bad (if you were a celt).

It is interesting that the "English" language underwent huge changes in the Norman era (when French was the official language and I understand records of "English" in this period are very scarce) and when resurrected two centuries later (ironically, largely due to the efforts of a Cornishman) it had moved a considerable way away from its germanic origin both in a large number of words (Bill Bryson in his book 'the mother tongue' indicates that 85% of saxon words died out in this period) and in its grammer.

The reason so many people have thought that the celts were either massacred by the saxons or there was great bias aganst them is probably because of the bias against the "welsh" in saxon writings and also the lack of celtic influence on old english. However, I think the bias is perhaps due to the ongoing conflicts with wales and the welsh cross-border raiding which would certainly not have contributed to their popularity! Similarly, I think that the lack of celtic influence on old english is more likely due to the fact that, when old english was established as a written language in about AD650, few celts had begun to speak it as their first language. I have noticed that out of foreigners who speak english, those who do not speak it at home often tend to speak it more clearly than those who do, i.e the language that the latter grew up with has a greater influence on their speech. Because of this, a largely administrative language often remains relatively free of surrounding linguistic influence. So maybe this was the situation in early England. Other evidence against such an anti-celtic bias is aristocratic families such as that of St. Chad, from northumbria, whose father and brothers(and himself) all apparently have celtic names: Cynebil, Ceawlin and Ceadda. Cynebil's name appears to be the same name as that of the ancient briton Cunobelinos(Shakespeare called him Cymbeline) another form of which was Cunobel. Ceawlin's (Chad's father and brother both bore this name) seems to be the same as that of the welshman st. Collin, while the names Chad and Ceadda are apparently shortenings (such shortenings were common among the anglo-saxons) derived from the welsh word "cad", meaning battle (i.e Cadwallon, Cadfan). Ironically then, the reason for the lack of celtic influence on old english could be due to the exact opposite to what many people have thought. Anyway, I think the hostility directed against the welsh was more toward those of Wales than against the celtic population of England.

I meant to say in my last message that st. Chad's family were probably native celtic speakers, because it is unlikely that ALL of them would have had celtic names otherwise. One would expect that, had their been an anti-celtic bias, the family would not have been members of the anglo-saxon aristocracy. As you said about english undergoing great changes in the norman era, quite a few extra brythonic words also entered the language at the time. Regarding celtic language survival, I have also heard that welsh was spoken in parts of the Pennines until about 1500, which makes me think that what Plymouth Exile has heard about celtic speech in devon lasting to well into the 1500's is highly probable. Just an off-topic question, does the nickname Ozzie Exile mean you are an Englishman exiled in Australia or vice versa.

Once again I forgot the question mark!......???

Einion,

I am a Devonian now living in Australia.

Cheers

G'day, I am also living in Australia, but my ancestors (many of whom were from the area of the ancient british kingdom of Strathclyde, in what is now south-west Scotland) settled here about five generations ago. I'm not sure whether or not I have any Devonian ancestry, though I do know that one ancestral family was from southern England, possibly a coastal town, which could have been in devon for all I know. I would be interested to know what you thought of my citizenship theory, which I posted a few days ago. P.S. I would also be interested to know what town or state you are living in.