h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

It is pleasing to see the subject of the Celtic history of Devon being raised.

It was a subject almost completely glossed over at my secondary school (Plymstock Comprehensive) and only in the sixth form, in an optional subject, did I come to know a little about our real past. To me this educational deficiency represented a form of supression - but Devon would hardly be unique in that (Brittany, and all the other Celtic regions of Britain have suffered greatly in the past)

I noted that the area I grew up in (Goosewell) was often accredited with a Anglo-Saxon derivation in local history books, but that the same place-name in Cornwall was given a Celtic background. Goosewell = Cus Ughel (or High Wood) and that (if you go there) is geographically correct. When I was a youth the place was pronounced 'guzzell' by the oldies - which sounds close to the Celtic derivation. There are many more (Pennycomequick in Plymouth springs to mind - penn y combe gwrek)

However I think language and place-names are only part of the story.

There is a difference in the people - their priorities, their attitudes. People in Devon feel a kin-ship (and a healthy rivalry) with the Cornish, and differentiate ourselves from those 'up the line'. The term Janner crosses both sides of the Tamar!

To sit on a bus in Plymouth and listen to the melodic chatter, and then do the same in London and hear, well... nothing! illustrates my point.

The local history that should be better known includes the Western Rebellion (or prayer book rebellion, when the church tried to change its services into English). The people of Devon and Cornwall rose and marched East. Three battles were fought on the Devon Borders before the uprising was put down (Fenny Bridges was one site). The fact that a group of farmers with pitchforks and the like could match
an army sent to meet them deserves recognition, but it is not even well known.

Also, how many know that like Cornwall, Devon had a Stannary Parliament? This took a substantial population outside of English Law, and into the rather bloody reputation of the Crockern Tor judgements.

Again the fact that Devon had its own version of wrestling (like Cornwall's but with a different emphasis - more kicking)is not well known. I understand as recently as the late 1800's thousands attended a match in Plymouth between the Devon and Cornwall champions.

I believe that more should be made known of our past, but just as strongly that we should look to what we are and not just what we were.

Local customs, local writing, local music should be encouraged and enjoyed. (By the way - please listen to the band Mad Rush on the BBC Devon web site)

Good luck to you trying to be the first Devon Bard (in a while)

I found your contribution on the Topic of Celtic Devon to be fascinating. My own thoughts and experiences seem, in many respects, to mirror yours. I was born and educated in Plymouth (Devonport High School for Boys), before going to University in Southampton. It was when my family moved house to the Pennycomequick district of Plymouth that I started to become interested in the Plymouth and Devon place names.

The derivation, which I discovered for Pennycomequick, was slightly different from yours, i.e. Pen-y-cwm-gwyk, meaning "The settlement at the head of the valley". I then quickly discovered that many other Plymouth districts had names with probable Celtic derivations or associations, e.g. Pennycross (Pen-y-crowz, Head (or Hill) of the cross), Penlee (Pen-lle, Dwelling on the hill), Manadon (Maen-y-dun, Stone (or rocky) hill), Mannamead (Maen-y-myd, Rock of the earth), Derriford (Derw-fordd, Road of oaks), Camel's Head (from Cam-hayle, Crooked estuary), The Hoe (Ughel, High), Lipson (from Lis, Residence or Court), Trefusis Valley (Trefusis means Farm of the entrenchments) and St. Budeaux (named after the Celtic Saint Budoc, who founded a settlement on the banks of the Tamar).

When I widened the search to the rest of Devon (Dyfnaint, deep valleys), I found place names with Celtic roots everywhere, albeit that many had been disguised by Anglicisation or corruption. Names such as "Combe" (or Coombe) and "Dun" (often corrupted to Don) were everywhere on the OS map, together with many instances of "Tre", "Pol", "Pen" and "Lan".

My history education was similar to yours, in that England was treated uniformly as if there were no regions with separate identities and sub-histories. The perceived wisdom was that the Anglo-Saxons had driven all the Britons (Celts) out of England into Wales (not even Cornwall was exempt). Living next door to Cornwall, I quickly found that the Cornish considered Cornwall to be on a par with Wales, as the last refuge of the Celtic people in the Southwest. None of this seemed to correlate with my own experiences and investigations. If Cornwall was full of Celts, and Devon was full of Saxons, why were people on either side of the Tamar so similar in terms of appearance, accent and dialect? I had been into Wales from Herefordshire and had been immediately struck by the differences in build and accent as one crossed into Wales. Going from Okehampton or Tavistock to Callington or Liskeard, anyone would be hard pushed to notice any differences in the inhabitants, and I found that the Cornish people used the same dialect words as Plymouth people used, such as "smeech", meaning cooking smoke. I later discovered that the accent changed gradually as one travelled from East Devon to West Cornwall, with no sudden change at the Tamar, so where was the evidence for a racial boundary at the Tamar?

I scoured the Library for books on local history, to find out if there had been any record of exterminations, major battles or enforced evacuations of the Britons from Devon into Cornwall. The only reference of any relevance that I could find was the well-known enigmatic account of Athelstan expelling the Britons from Exeter, and setting the Devon/Cornwall boundary at the Tamar in about 926 AD. Many have taken this to mean that Devon was cleared of Britons, who were all sent into Cornwall. This is not what was recorded, and is a clear case of unsupportable extrapolation. There was no mention of the other British inhabitants of Devon being displaced, only those in Exeter. At that time, Exeter would have occupied the area near the present Cathedral and Exeter Central Station, and would have been walled. One could speculate that any Britons who had been driven from the walled city would have settled nearby, and there is ample evidence that this is exactly what happened, as there is a cluster of churches dedicated to Celtic Saints outside the old city boundary near the present Exeter St. David's Station and close to the river.

Theories were all very well, but they could not be proved at that time. All the evidence pointed to the survival of the British Celts in significant numbers in Devon into Norman times, but it was not possible to determine the relative proportions of Celts and Saxons until recent developments in DNA analysis were used to provide definitive tests. An increasing number of DNA surveys all seem to point to the conclusion that the Britons survived in Southern England into modern times in far higher numbers than even those who had subscribed to the survival theory had dared to predict. The most recent survey, by a team from University College London for the BBC "Blood of the Vikings" series, concluded that in the South of England (from Kent to Cornwall), the "invaders" (Saxons) were never a majority, and that in the Southwest, the Celts continued to constitute at least 75% of the population.

So now we know for certain that Devon is populated predominantly by the descendents of the Celtic Britons, and not by pure Anglo-Saxons, as the Cornish and Welsh would have us believe. However, some intriguing questions remain, including the one of how the first West Saxon king and his son came to have Celtic names, Cerdic and Cynric respectively. Perhaps there was a strong infiltration of Celts into the Saxon ruling classes even before the formation of Wessex and the first Saxon settlements in Devon. Certainly at the beginning of the 8th Century, Geraint (King of Dumnonia) had a friendly working relationship with Aldhelm (Bishop of Sherborne), indicating peaceful coexistence between Celts and Saxons at that time.

While on the subject of Celtic matters, how many Devonians realise that there are two registered Devon tartans? The only other English counties with their own tartans are Cornwall and Somerset. These are the three counties which formed the Celtic Kingdom of Dumnonia.

Bob Burns,
Plymouth Exile.

I did not know there was a registered tartan for Devon.

How do I find out more?? (what it looks like/where I can get it etc..)

There are actually three Devon tartans but one (the Commemorative WR2614) is quite hideous. The two main ones are:-

Devon Original District Tartan (WR1284)

Devon Companion District Tartan (WR1283)

To see these tartans, go to www.google.com and enter "Devon Tartan". You will find what you need in the first ten hits, or go to:-

http://www.tartans.scotland.net/

The tartans were designed by Coldharbour Mill, who do a range of merchandise in these tartans. Another source of tartan weave is:-

http://www.house-of-tartan.scotland.net/house/default.htm

but their computer generated images are rather too dark to see any real detail.

Of course, if you wanted to go the whole hog and be one of the very few people to own a Devon Tartan Kilt, you would have to go to a Kiltmaker such as:-

http://www.mccalman-kilts.co.uk/

Speak to Laura. She can even get the tartan weave for you.

NB. You can click on any of the above links.

Best of luck with your search.

Further to my posting yesterday, I have now found the Coldharbour Mill Devon Tartan URL. It is:-

http://www.coldharbourmill.org.uk/Devontart.html

Thanks for the research

Many thanks for your reply.

You're right. It is more than about language, though that is a bigf clue. The affinity Devon and Cornish people feel drew me to consider why. There is no coincidence for these relationships. They are two thousand years old!

Dear Bob,

The celtic population would have certainly survived, just as the Saxons did when the Normans invaded. The Saxon invasion to Devon was substantial in it's own time, but may look small now. It represented a new cutlural, politcal authority that would have oppressed and enslaved the locals. But, as is always the case, the invaders soon settle down and mingle with the locals. After a generation or two, everyone is getting along more or less. It's not that simple, but you know what I mean.

Matthew Friday

Dear Mathew,

I agree that the Saxon settlement (more so than an invasion) of Devon did introduce a new political order, and eventually a new culture when the Celtic language fell out of use, but there is no real evidence for large-scale oppression or enslavement. Also, the DNA surveys lead to the inescapable conclusion that the Celts remained predominant in terms of population size (if not politically). This is what I meant when I stated that the Saxons had settled in relatively small numbers (perhaps representing up to 20-25% of the population). The same surveys also show that the Celt/Saxon ratio was not significantly different in Cornwall, despite what Mebyon Kernow and the other Cornish separatist factions would have us believe, (fortunately such extremists represent a very small minority of the Cornish population). Much of the present Cornish Celtic Culture and interest in the Cornish Language is a modern revival, so there is absolutely no reason why Devon should not have its own revival of Celtic Culture, or indeed interest in the Celtic tongue.

The point I was trying to make, in my first reply to your article, was that the Celtic Culture of Devon was not that of a long-ago vanished population (driven out or exterminated by the Saxons), but that of the vast majority of our own ancestors. This gives our claim to such culture, a legitimacy that it would lack if the Saxons had driven the Celtic majority from Devon, or exterminated them, as was the popular belief until recently.

Best wishes with your project, and if I can be of any further assistance, please let me know via this discussion forum. It has been one of my pet interests for many years now.

Bob Burns,
Plymouth Exile.

I was interested to read about the Devon Tartan.

Which got me thinking (a painful experience!).

Does Devon have a flag? Cornwall and Brittany do.

If Cornwall uses St Piran's flag, could not Devon use St Petrock (if he had a flag).

If not - should one be created?

I would support one in green, black and white.

There does appear to be a Devon Flag (see link below), but I can't find a picture of it anywhere.

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/Newsdesk/ns1-2000/ns00-027.htm

I will continue looking.

What did you think of the Devon tartans?

To all the above "Researchers"

Here's a little tip - if you click on "MY SPACE" at the top of the page you can fill in a few details about yourselves and make your messaging a little less formal by choosing a nickname to use while you are Online.

Until you make any changes on your personal pages no one else is able to leave you messages.

Keep the messages coming - and maybe we should have a competition to design a new Devon flag....?

Cheers all

JG

Thanks - changes made to 'my space'!

As to the question of a Devon Flag - I think it should be raised.

If there is a Flag already what is it, and why isn't it well known?

If there isn't then I suggest we should have one.

You can see the effect in Cornwall, where the adoption of the Saint Piran's flag has provided a icon for the local identity. Surely the same could happen in Devon.

As to the devon Tartan's - yes I have seen them - and like the idea (thanks). I am not sure I will buy a full kilt (in fact I am sure I will not), but I will probably buy something.

Dear Mathew,

In your original article, you requested details, stories, folklore or evidence relating to Celtic Devon. I have collected together some topics, with information and links. Probably most, if not all, will be known to you, but if not, here goes.


Dark Age History and Celtic Survival in the West

The following links present evidence of Celtic survival in the west throughout the Anglo-Saxon era. Without evidence for such survival, any claims to Celtic Heritage would be groundless.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/vikingmap.shtml?sw_england

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/genetics_results_03.shtml

http://www.britannia.com/history/nararthist.html

http://www.britannia.com/history/narsaxhist.html


Arthur's Oven and Seat

There are several sites with the name "Arthur's Oven". One of these was seen in 1113 by some canons of Laon, in northern France, who were touring England to try and raise funds for their monastery after a fire the previous year. An account of their exploits was written in c.1145 by a monk named Herman but it seems likely that the bulk of text was compiled at the time of the original trip (see J.S.P. Tatlock, "The English Journey of the Laon Canons" Speculum 8 (1933), pp.454-65). In Devon they were shown both a "seat" and an "oven" of King Arthur. Whilst the former is now unlocated, the latter is probably the "King's Oven" (furnus regis) recorded on Dartmoor in the next century and beyond (SX 674812). This was a feature prominant enough to be used as a marker in the bounds of the royal forest of Dartmoor in 1240 and is believed to be an ancient tin-smelting furnace.

Arthur's Duel with the Devil

There is a legend that two tors on Dartmoor, (Blackingstone Rock and Hel Tor), mark the site of a duel between King Arthur and the Devil. Each hurled Quoits at each other from their respective hills. When the Quoits landed, they were transformed into large rocks, which is how these tors were formed. Arthur was, of course, victorious.


The Celtic Custom of "Crying the Neck"

The custom of "Crying the Neck" was carried out in both Devon and Cornwall. For details see:-

http://www.strawcraftsmen.co.uk/links.html#trad

and

http://www.geocities.com/mikerdna/newmissal7.html


Dewer the Wild Huntsman and his Wisht Hounds

The Dewerstone, on the southern edge of Dartmoor is supposedly a favourite haunt of the Devil. With his pack of wisht hounds he would drive sinners to the edge of the cliff, never once touching them, where they would then fall onto the jagged rocks below. On a stormy night you can hear the cries of the unfortunates as they relive their nightmarish death. It is best not to linger too long near the Dewerstone for if you see one of the huge black dogs with red eyes then you won't survive.
One morning the imprint of a naked human foot was found at the edge of the Dewerstone with cloven hooves visible behind it.


Other Dartmoor legends can be found at:-

http://members.aol.com/dartmoorlander/dartmoor/legends.htm


Devon Step Dancing Tradition

As in all Celtic regions, there was a strong tradition of Step Dancing in Devon, especially in the rural areas and Dartmoor. It still survives today (see link below).

http://www.gre.ac.uk/~cs02/lesrice.htm


Devon Wrestling

In common with other Celtic areas of Britain, Devon had its own style of wrestling. See link below.

http://www.thisisnep.co.uk/schoolshout/local_history_4.htm


I hope this data is of some help.

Bob Burns,
Plymouth Exile

hi there ive been looking over all the previous comments and found some of them extremely interesting, especially the one about the flag (i personnaly would enjoy waving it round at festivals this summer). I live in Scotland now and up here they are fairly keen on the whole celtic thing so i decided to do a bit of research on the internet in my spare time, to my knowledge in the time of celtic Britain our sunny peninsula of Devon and Cornwall was called Dumnonia (the latin version of its gealic name), its from this celtic kingdom that Devon gets its name. Cornwall once stripped down translated means "west welsh" which makes a lot of sense as the Cornish language is part of the "q" branch of gealic languages, consisting of Welsh, Cornish and Breton. So this all seemed OK, but how come traditionally Devon doesnt like Cornwall and vice-versa?
Many people in Cornwall who are involved in the Mebyon Kernowak movement feel that the only claim Devon has being celtic is the fact that its next to Cornwall and has been "paired off" with Cornwall to form a common westcountry region in an attempt by the government to subdue unrest in the cornish people and integrate them more with the rest of England. Cornwall doesnt like the idea of the westcountry.
But yeah i think it'd be really great to learn more about devons distinctive and illustrious history but i dont think that the celtic part of it is really worth looking at, after all we dont need to go as far back in time as the Cornish to find great devon icons do we?
keep looking for that flag though eh bhoys.

Dear Mr. Dartmoor,

Welcome to the conversation. Concerning the flag, there does appear to be one (see my previous post with a link), but none of us seem to know what it looks like.

Our peninsula was indeed known as "Dumnonia" by the Romans, but there is some controversy as to whether the name Devon was derived from this word or from "Dyfnaint", which is the Welsh name for Devon (meaning Deep (or Dark) Valleys). Certainly the Cornish name for Devon was "Dewnans", which has the same meaning as the Welsh name. The name Cornwall is derived from the Saxon "Corn Wealas", meaning the Horn of the Foreigners. Wales is also derived from the word "Wealas" (foreigners), and the same root can be found in Devon in names such as "Walla Brook" and "Walreddon". The local British (Celtic) name for the Saxon settlers was "Sousson" (equivalent to the Gaelic "Sassenach"), and we can see this name in "Soussons Down" on Dartmoor.

Welsh, Cornish and Breton are in fact part of the "p" branch of the Celtic languages, with the "q" branch consisting of Irish and Scots Gaelic and Manx.

Most sensible Devonians and Cornish get on with each other very well. It is only the extreme factions on either side who do not, but that is not to say that there is no friendly rivalry. Mebyon Kernow and other Cornish separatist groups refer to the Devonians as Anglo-Saxons, as it suits their case for an independent Cornwall. They like to re-write history to support their distorted point of view. Fortunately, proof now exists (in the form of DNA evidence) that the vast majority of Devonians (just like the Cornish) are descended from the Britons (Celts) and not from the Saxons as the Cornish extremists would like us to believe.

You are correct when you say that we do not need to go back to our Celtic past to find great Devon icons, but that part of Devon's history is not disputed, so we need to establish the early foundations of our illustrious county, by bringing our Celtic past out into the light.

Plymouth Exile

Dear Mr Dartmoor

We have had no luck yet finding a Devon Flag. Another contributor found a reference to one, but I can't find any other reference (my guess is that referred to the Devon Coat of Arms rather than a flag).

As you say it would be good to wave around as an easily recognisable symbol for Devon.

If we have to 'invent' one (and thats what happened in Cornwall) my suggestion was for a flag in green white and black - probably in the 'tricolour' arrangement that is on the French Flag - but I would be happy to hear other suggestions (perhaps based on historic links or the colours of the countryside). Might look good at Home Park as well.

I agree that some extremists in the Cornish nationalistic movement like to create an 'us versus them' issue against Devon. However I think the majority of Cornishmen (and women) would acknowledge the similarities between us. It is true that the Celtic language persevered longer in (western) Cornwall than in Devon, but the differences are of degree rather than absolutes.

The friendly rivalry between Devon and Cornwall is exactly what you would expect 'within the family'.

I don't want Devon to be seen as Cornish - I want Devon to be seen as Devon!!

I know when I worked up in Lancashire that they saw Devon as one of those 'southerners' - almost a suburb of London. Of course they do not realise that Plymouth is farther from London than they are!

What makes Devon unique is two things - its geography and its people.

Our history is unique to us (and is often overlooked in schools) and is undoubtably influenced by our Celtic past.

I don't know why or where this lack of knowledge or understanding of our background arose. I suspect it was in Victorian times.

However even back in the mid 19th Century the fact that Devon was majority Celtic was being discussed. Refer to the website on Thomas Huxley (http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/)

Its our legacy - lets celebrate it!!

I think I was not specific enough on my earlier reference to Huxley.
The earlier reference will leave the researcher with a bit of work to do!

The most relevant reference is

http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/UnColl/PMG/HonPolEthn.html

Professor Huxley was president of the Ethnological society in 1870 and was a colleague of Charles Darwin.

The tone is very Victorian, and Huxley's comments contain some views that are unpalatable to modern minds - however his comments indicate that even in the mid 19th century the reality of Devon's Celtic background was being raised (and yes - there was some resistence - but that was in the days before DNA testing)

Dear Ozzie Exile,

Like you, I have had no luck tracking down the Devon Flag. The reference I found could have referred to the Devon Coat of Arms, but it did specifically state "Devon Flag". I have a few more avenues of enquiry to make, so I will let you know if I find anything.

I am sure you are correct in your suspicion that Devon's historical (Celtic) past was forgotten about (or conveniently ignored) during the 19th Century. The reasons for this were explained by Dr. Bryan Ward-Perkins of Trinity College, Oxford, in his Paper "Why did the Anglo-Saxons not become more British", English Historical Review, Oxford University Press, 2000 (link below).

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0293/462_115/62980101/p1/article.jhtml

In particular, Ward-Perkins refers to the writings of the prominent Victorian Saxonist Edward Freeman who, in the latter half of the 19th Century, promoted the view that the English were a pure Teutonic (Anglo-Saxon) race, and succeeded in making this the fashionable theory of the time, e.g.

"The [British] women of course would be made slaves, or they would sometimes be married to their masters. Thus there may doubtless be some little British and Roman blood in us, just as some few Welsh and Latin words crept into the English tongue from the very beginning. But we may be sure that we have not much of their blood in us, because we have so few of their words in our language. ... Now you will perhaps say that our forefathers were cruel and wicked men ... and so doubtless it was ... But it has turned out much the better in the end that our forefathers did thus kill or drive out nearly all the people whom they found in the land ... [since otherwise] I cannot think that we should have ever have been so great and free a people as we have been for many ages."

(From E. A. Freeman, Old English History for Children [1869])

But even Freeman had to admit that in counties such as Devon, there could never have been large numbers of Anglo-Saxon settlers in comparison to the numbers of the native Britons. He thus disparagingly referred to Devonians as "Englishmen by adoption" in his Four Oxford Lectures of 1887.

In such a pro-Teutonic climate, it is not surprising that the true history of Devon became unfashionable, but even then there were a few sane voices in the wilderness, such as Huxley, to whom you have referred.

Plymouth Exile

Interesting discussion (on Celtic Devon and a Devon flag).

It is refreshing to see these matters being raised - not before time in my view.

I am not sure genetics is the way to analyse people (sounds like it could stray into Aryan style racism) but certainly Devon's Celtic based culture should be brought to the fore.

As for the flag - great idea.

As for the discussion on a patron saint - I am not that bothered - being a practising atheist.