h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

Interesting discussion (on Celtic Devon and a Devon flag).

It is refreshing to see these matters being raised - not before time in my view.

I am not sure genetics is the way to analyse people (sounds like it could stray into Aryan style racism) but certainly Devon's Celtic based culture should be brought to the fore.

As for the flag - great idea.

As for the discussion on a patron saint - I am not that bothered - being a practising atheist.

Dear Kerswell,

Welcome to the discussion.

I was the person who introduced the genetics issue, not to claim some master race, but just to establish that the Celts in Devon did survive the (so called) Saxon invasion and are therefore predominantly our ancestors. Without this evidence, the fanatical wing of the Cornish Nationalist Movement would claim that we Devonians did not have a Celtic Heritage or Culture to be brought to the fore. One only has to look at some of the Cornish extremist Web Sites to see the way that they totally distort history in order to "prove" that they have nothing in common with their neighbours to the east of the Tamar. This is such a pity, as the vast majority of Cornish people are very friendly towards their Devonian "cousins".

Plymouth Exile

Thanks for your reassuring words.

I have looked at the BBC 'Vikings' site, and from what I can see whilst their summary was the further west you went the greater the proportion of Celtic genes, I don't believe they included any sites in Devon in the survey. Perhaps other surveys have done so, or it simply passed me by.

That said, the likelihood is that Devon would fit into the general pattern, and perhaps more so because of immigration back from Cornwall (because of the mining on Dartmoor) and from Ireland (reputed to have been common into North Devon).

Certainly there seems to be little evidence for the view that the Celts were 'expelled' from Devon in totality and moved to Cornwall or Brittany.

In fact I believe the Celts were actually 'expelled' from the city of Exeter, and promptly established themselves at what is now Exeter St Davids where the area was known as the British quarter for centuries. Just outside the city gates is hardly the most difficult place to find outlaw renegades.

Nevertheless, I am not sure the heart of this matter lies with genealogy. None of us are 'pure' anything (and I know I am a mongrel).

The test (for me at least) is whether Devon retained a 'celtic' culture, and my uneducated opinion is that it has. Certainly I do not see any significant differences in culture between the two sides of the Tamar, at least no more so than within the regions of Cornwall or within the regions of Devon.

I do see cultural differences between Devon and (say) London, Surrey or Manchester.

Incomers, be they Saxon, Viking, Norman (or whatever) seem to have added to, and been absorbed into, the culture - and I think we may all be better off for that. [Incidentally this would have happened in Cornwall as well]

Dear Kerswell,

As you stated, there were no DNA test sites in Devon in the UCL survey for the BBC, but Professor Goldstein of UCL gave more precise figures in an interview for the Sunday Times. He revealed that in the South of England, the proportion of Celtic Y-Chromosome types varied from 50% for the Kent test site to 75% for the sites in the South West. I took this to refer to Dorchester and Penzance.

There have been other DNA surveys such as one a few years back by Dr. Martin Evison of Sheffield University and published in "British Archaeology". His conclusions were very much the same, and if I remember correctly, he did take samples in Devon. Another survey, specific to Devon and Cornwall, is currently being undertaken by Oxford University, but as far as I know, no results have yet been published. As you rightly say, the published results clearly show that pure Celts or pure Saxons do not exist anywhere in Britain, so everyone is a mongrel.

I agree entirely with your interpretation of the Athelstan incident at Exeter, but there are some Cornish extremists around who distort this piece of history for their own ends. Their story goes that Athelstan kicked the Cornish out of Exeter (and the rest of Devon) and into Cornwall, setting the Tamar as the boundary, and that any Cornish found in Devon from that time on were to be killed on sight.

You would think that such a decisive action would get a mention in the Anglo Saxon Chronicles. There is no mention of it. It is only briefly mentioned by William of Malmesbury, writing two centuries later, and all he implies is that the Britons who had been living in Exeter under their own system of laws, were expelled from the walled city and that Wessex laws pertained from then on. Athelstan did fix the Tamar as the boundary between Devon and Cornwall when he appointed a Bishop of Cornwall at St. Germans. Up until that time, the Cornish had come under a joint Diocese with the Devonians. So the mass expulsions from Devon into Cornwall and the threats of extermination appear to be pure fabrications by the Cornish extremists. The continued existence of Britons (Celts) in Devon is supported by the existence of many Celtic derived place names in Devon, e.g. Combe (Welsh, cwm or Cornish, cum), Dun, Tor (Welsh, twr), Man (Welsh, maen or Cornish, men) and many instances of Tre, Pol, Pen and Lan. The DNA surveys only serve to reinforce this evidence.

As far as culture is concerned, I would agree with you that in the places where I have lived in England (apart from Devon), namely Hampshire, London, Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, the culture has been quite different from that in Devon and Cornwall.

I am not sure what has happened to the others who have taken part in this discussion in the past. They all seem to be concentrating on the Devon Flag topic at the moment. Incidentally, the Devon Editor has started a Devolution Message Board at my suggestion and so far, mine has been the only contribution, so if you feel like making a contribution, please do.

Plymouth Exile

I note the comments by Plymouth Exile on the extremist views of the fringe elements of the Cornish Nationalistic movement.

I think this is true, although it is matched by (and perhaps was a reaction to) a 'traditional view' that England is [or should be] a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant nation. Fortunately this view is in decline, but lets not pretend it has gone away. In my opinion it is this second view which has resulted in Devon's own history being so poorly taught to or understood by Devonians.

Coming back to the CNP/MK extremists I puzzle why they wouldn't welcome a resurgance/awaking of a Celtic 'identity' in Devon. Surely if they favour the Celtic element in Cornish history and culture then they would see the same development in Devon as a complementary movement.

Perhaps it isn't the Celtic element they value at all - it is just a vehicle to generate and fan the flames of 'nationalism' and xenophobia - always dangerous weapons.

I would have thought that if their cause had merit it would succeed because of its intrinsic merit rather than by 'putting down' others and by exagerating differences. Perhaps they think this will unify their own target audience - but I see little evidence of this to date.

If the 'Celtic awakening' in Devon is to become reality (and there are a few signs it is happening) then we should ensure we don't fall into the same trap.

Those who have contributed to these conversations on Celtic Devon seem of a roughly similar view (differences seem to be of degree rather than absolute opposition) but I still doubt that the issue of our Celtic identity is getting very much 'airplay' in the wider community and within Devon itself.

How can this be done??

I agree with Ozzie Exile, that extremist views propagated by either the Cornish Nationalists or the English Nationalists are to be abhorred. Fortunately, the WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) mentality, which was prevalent in the 19th Century, has all but disappeared.

However, the anti English (particularly anti Devon) utterances of the Cornish fanatics are still casting their ugly shadow over the web. Often this takes the form of writing Devon out of history, or where this is not possible, to cast Devon in a bad light without valid justification. Two examples of the former are given below from the following link:-

http://homepages.tesco.net/~k.wasley/stannery.htm

Stannary Law-From Latin "Stannum"= tin. A Legal system exclusive to the Celts of Cornwall dating back to pre-English and perhaps pre-Christian eras. The Westminster parliament has recognised "any lawful right, profit, privilege or easement to which the tinners of Cornwall are claimed to be entitled. (Constitutional Law 1993).

Stannary Parliament-Feature of Celtic government of Cornwall of great antiquity.


Notice how Devon does not exist. It is reminiscent of the Soviet Union during the Stalin purges, when out of favour officials even disappeared from photographs.

Further blatant examples appear in the following link, except for section B9, where Devon is mentioned in a derogatory manner (see below).

http://www.cornish-stannary-parliament.abelgratis.com/index.html


B9. Their Majesties impose double taxes on the Cornish national minority

In 1337 the Duchy of Cornwall became the beneficiary of the customary English double tax on "foreigners" imposed as "coinage" on Cornish tin production, as compared to Devon tin production in England. This difference in the "coinage", or Duchy tax, had been introduced simultaneously in 1198 AD. Refer G.R. Lewis; "The Stannaries" Harvard University, U.S.A., 1908. pages 234-235 - ("xxx denarii de stannariis in Devonia", and; v solidi de stannariis in Cornubia" thirty pence for the stannaries of Devon and five shillings (sixty pence) for the stannaries of Cornwall). Lewis on page 85 reveals, "It is possible that the motives for the separation of the Cornish tinners from those of Devon in matters of administration were based on racial differences". He points out that Devon tinners were of Anglo-Saxon stock and the Cornish, Celtic.

Verdict:- The English, as relatively recent arrivals, were the "foreigners" to Britain not the indigenous Cornish. Treating the Cornish national minority as foreigners for taxation purposes and as English, as and when required, should be seen as yet another expression of institutionalised nationalism designed to pervert the course of history for racial, economic and cultural advantage.



I must admit that I do not know the circumstances pertaining to the above, but the opposite injustice, detailed in the following link, has of course been conveniently overlooked.

http://www.btinternet.com/~johnandsandy.colby/cornwall/08stannary/stannary.html


On the issue of how to get the required "airplay" for Devon's Celtic identity, I am convinced that the only way is via local-interest television features and documentaries. I wonder if Mathew Friday has something like this in mind, and whether the BBC in the South West would feel that such a project would be worthwhile. It would, of course, need to cover the history and heritage of the whole region, not just Devon, but that should add to potential audience interest. Any thoughts or other suggestions?


Plymouth Exile

Plymouth Exile

Thank you for the interesting background and links re Devon and Cornwall's Stannary parliaments.

I am not sure who asserted that Devon tin-miners were anglo-saxon, but if you look at any detailed OS map of Dartmoor and surround it is littered with the old mine sites - the name of most begin with 'Wheal'. For example - see Wheal Betsy on BBC Devon's own Dartmoor picture gallery.

Wheal is (of course) the celtic word for mine, and somehow it makes little sense to suggest that a group of anglo-saxons decided to adopt celtic words when they donned a miners cap.

As to the stannary parliament, I worked (for a brief while) at the Hemerdon Tungsten and Tin mine (just outside Plympton) when it was operating around 1980.

I remember that shortly after the mine re-opened a ceremonial stannator was appointed, as apparently was the right once tin production had commenced.

Sure this was ceremonial and was as much a PR exercise for the mine as anything else - but it indicates that the old rights may still survive, and it demonstates an interest in the Devon Stannary history.

Sadly I don't think 'The Hemerdon Project' is still in operation (the site has been open and shut over the years with the frequency of a bar room door) but the story is still of interest.

I wonder if anybody else who worked at the mine can comment.

Ozzie Exile

You are quite right about the use of the prefix "Wheal", meaning mine. I believe it is derived from the Old Cornish word "Huel", meaning a works. I was very interested in your experiences while working at Hemerdon. The mines of Dartmoor and the Tamar Valley are a particular interest of mine, as I have explored many of them, both at surface and underground. In fact I am currently the Vice President of the Northern Mine Research Society, which is Britain's premier mining history society, and despite its name covers the whole of the British Isles, with members throughout Britain and overseas (see link below).

http://www.nmrs.co.uk/nmrs.htm

One of the mines I have explored is Devon Great Consols (near Tavistock). One can gain entry into the Wheal Fanny section of the mine. Of course DGC is a mine that the Cornish extremists do not like to talk about, because it was larger and richer than any mine in Cornwall, and therefore (by their definition) did not exist.

As far as I am aware, the Stannary Laws have never been repealed. In fact some Cornish people have tried to invoke Stannary Law to claim exemption from UK Law. So far, they have always failed.

Have you had further thoughts on methods of promoting Devon's Celtic Heritage?


Plymouth Exile

I too have been around Devon Great Consols (DGC) mine, and it was an interesting experience for me.

'The Hemerdon Project' was an interesting experience itself - an underground mine - using an incline railway with horizontal stopes to access the ore body.

The mine was itself on the site of the old WW2 mine - when Britain promoted the production from Hemerdon because it was a rare source of Tungsten (as well as tin) and made Britain less dependant on overseas sources.

When I worked there the scale of the mine was relatively small (about 60-80 people employed) and so many procedures were 'manual'.

Ore quality was tested using what I understand to be a traditional method of sampling known as 'quartering', where the raw ore, floats and sinks etc were each piled into conical mounds and then 'quartered' by dividing the mound into equal and representative quarters to get samples down to a size suitable for riffling.

At least the 'traditional' aspect was how the work was sold to me - it was actually mostly bloody hard work with a shovel.

The area around Hemerdon is full of old workings - including tin and arsenic. The old railway line from the arsenic mine was still devoid of growth - many years after mining arsenic ceased.

Because Hemerdon was looking to go open cut we took samples of the surrounding area - to look for a suitable place for tailings - and interestingly the place still abounded in tin.

This sampling was sometimes done by accessing the old mine workings - and a visit to some of those illustrated the terrible working conditions of the day.

Hemerdon itself had 7-8ft roofs and straight passageways. The old mines were often just a long and tortuous crawl! DGC was obviously in a much bigger and better league

As to any ideas to promote Devon's Celtic past - I agree that a documentary might be a good start - and possibly some promotion tied into Matthews's book.

Perhaps we could see some more formal presence at the various fairs etc.. - perhaps a stall selling the tartan, the flag and the book??
You never know - it might actually make money.

Dear Ozzie Exile,

Concerning the mining scene in Devon, and your particular interest in Hemerdon Mine, you may find this site of interest (link below).

http://members.madasafish.com/~stevejohnson/moors/

Also click on the "Far above the clouds" link at the bottom of the above page. Good viewing.


Plymouth Exile

Plymouth Exile

Thank you for the 'lead' re Hemerdon.

The picture was taken circa 1975 - which was before it reopened, and before I worked on it.

Sadly, I think it is closed again now.

Ozzie Exile

Ozzie Exile et al,

I have posted a rather long piece to the BBC Cornwall (Independence) message board. I thought it was about time that someone exposed the half-truths, lies and misinformation put out by the extremists. Please let me know what you think, and please post yourselves if you would like to add anything.

I hope that if the Celtic Devon movement takes off, we don't attract any of the bitter and twisted biggots who seem to inhabit the Cornish Nationalist groups. Fortunately, I think that they are a very small (but vociferous) minority. The vast majority of Cornish people are very sensible and friendly towards Devonians (and others). Just to give an example of the sort of thing I am talking about, go to the following link, and the click on "The Cornish Nation", in the left hand column, and read:-

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kernow_tgg/TGGhome.html

This is just one of many such sites pumping out an endless stream of vitreol.

Regards to all,

Plymouth Exile

Plymouth Exile

I have looked at your contribution to the BBC Cornwall 'Devolution' debate.

Much (if not all) of what you say is correct, however I have a suspicious feeling that calling the cornish nationalist movement 'small, bitter and twisted' is not going to win them over.

I appreciate that you probably are not trying to do this anyway, but I suspect we will see further 'vitriol' from Tim et al...

I am not sure I quite follow the logic of Tim's Duchy of Cornwall argument. Tim seems to be saying that it is some form of nationhood (with territories) but other (cornish nationalist) sites, such as

www.cornish-stannary-parliament.abelgratis.com

seem to be quite vitriolic on how the duchy has been used against cornish people.

Interestingly on this site it indicates that the combination of the duchy laws and stannary parliament result in an enduring authority. If true this would have as much if not more bearing in Devon, where a large number of the mines must have been on 'Duchy' soil (The duchy having more land in Devon (mostly on Dartmoor) than in Cornwall).

It seems Tim (and others) can't differentiate between Cornwall and the Duchy of Cornwall. I don't hear the same clamour for independence from the inhabitants of Lancaster (yes - there is a Duchy of Lancaster).

Ozzie Exile,

I never intended to try to "win over" the extremists. I have found from past experience, many years ago, that they never answer any logical points put to them. My intention was to give them enough rope to hang themselves. Hopefully, the sensible majority will see that they do not use logic in their responses, only dogma. Remember, it is the sensible majority we need to convince, not the extremists.

Regarding your point about the Duchy, this is exactly what I meant when I said that the Nationalists have a love/hate relationship with the Duchy. They need it there, so that they can claim to be a Duchy and not a County, but they hate it because it taxes the Cornish people. Of course they are blind to the fact that it taxes the Dartmoor people also, by way of Duchy rents.

I was also looking into the Duchy of Lancaster. It is described as a County palatine, whereas the Duchy of Cornwall isn't described as such in the official web site. However, the Nationalists claim that it is, in their unofficial Duchy site. This probably means that Lancashire has more right to independence than Cornwall does.

I have also found an interesting piece on the Earldom of Devon:-

"The Courtenays of Powderham went on from 1556 to 1830 in a continual male descent, as important Devonshire magnates, obtaining, first a baronetcy in 1644, and then, in 1762, a Viscounty. They never claimed the Earldom, being, like the rest of the World, unaware that it had never ceased to exist. And the Cavendishes were given, by James I, the Earldom, and by William. III, the Dukedom of Devonshire, under the misconception that the title was at the disposition of the Crown. In 1830, the third Viscount Courtenay was apprised of the extraordinary wording of the patent of 1553, it is said, by his cousin, who chanced to be assistant-clerk of Parliaments at Westminster and so was accustomed to being consulted by persons searching through original documents for manifold purposes. He put in his claim to be heir male of Edward, who had died in 1556, and the House of Lords, on looking up the facts, decided that he and his ancestors had undoubtedly been Earls de jure for the last two hundred and eighty years. Hence the emergence of the long-forgotten title and the tiresome duplication of the names Devon and Devonshire in the peerage-roll of today. As the first restored Earl died childless, his successor was his cousin, the Clerk of Parliaments, who had dug up the patent of 1553."

This would seem to imply that if the Earl has any power in Devon, that such power is independent of the Crown. Therefore if we were Devon extremists, we could argue that, as the Crown did not govern the administration of Devon, then Devon could claim to be independent of the Crown. It is no sillier than the basis of the Cornish claim.


Plymouth Exile

Plymouth and Ozzie Exile

I too have voiced my thoughts on the BBC Cornwall 'Nationalism' discussion group - and indeed on the BBC Devon 'Devolution' debate.

However I am puzzled by what the 'extreme' cornish nationalists really want.

As far as I can gather it seems they want to remain part of the UK/Britain but as a separate 'nation' within it.

It may all be a matter of degree but if this is all I am not sure where our 'greater autonomy' ends and their 'nationalism' begins.

Perhaps I am misreading it and they really do intend to require passports to cross the Tamar (not a bad idea for some of those coming east by the way) and that they do want to leave the Union and align themselves with Denmark??

Whatever it is - they do seem to get rather heated!!! It is probably the tone of some of their web-sites that concerns me most - they can tend toward the rabid, and seem grasp at each and every straw to make their point.

However, enough on the deficiencies of our debating opponents!

Surely what WE seek is simply recognition of our 'identity', and to have greater say in what happens in our beloved Devon.

To do that we need no claims to duchies, earldoms, dubious legal findings that may or may well not have any real bearings. The only really relevant thing is that we want it to be so (assuming that such a view is representative - and I am unsure on that point)

So - like 'Skippy' of Whyalla said - why not a referendum?

It could be held atthe same time as a general of County Election - so it could be little extra cost.

This will mean much more than the uncertain intent of some long dead King.

Kerswell,

Thanks for joining in the Devon devolution and Cornish nationalism debates. In the case of the Cornish board, I hope that a lot of ordinary Cornish folk have been reading the postings, even if they have not participated. In this way, they will see for themselves what a bigoted lot the nationalists are. As you say, some of the nationalist sites are unbelievable, not only in the misinformation that they propagate, but also in the venomous way in which go about it. The reason that they either ignore the existence of Devon, or spit their vile venom in our direction, is that firstly we are on the front line, and secondly (and more importantly) they see Devon as a particular threat because our histories, cultures and economies are too similar for comfort, i.e. how can they successfully argue that they are so different from everybody else, if it can be seen that their next door neighbour is so similar to them.

I first came up against this while I was at university in the late 60s. I had a prolonged correspondence with the then Chairman of Mebyon Kernow, Mr. Robert Dunstone. Of course in those days there was no DNA evidence, but the historical and place name evidence was still pretty overwhelming. In his letters he used remarks like: "The only good thing that ever came out of Devon, was the road to Cornwall". The correspondence came to an end when he told me that he had sent my historical arguments to his "history experts", and that they would contact me, (of course, they never did). His ending remark was that he just knew that he was different from any Devonian, without the need for history or culture to prove it. My reaction was "thank goodness for that, I wouldn't want to be that bigoted". It is obvious from our present dialogue that they haven't improved in the last 35 years.

I believe that the Government plans to hold referenda in the various regions, to see if they are interested in devolution, but I fear that their definition of the South West Region will be the one from Lands End to Swindon; either that or nothing. I may be wrong (and I hope I am), but I suspect that they will not even consider devolving more power to the individual counties, so I don't think that Cornwall (even) stands a cat in hell's chance of being given the opportunity of going it alone as a region. As a referendum for the "mega" region is almost certain to come up with a "no" vote, I think that our only chance of getting a sensible working region out of this process, is for the people of the four South West Counties to apply pressure to MPs etc., to persuade the Government that the "mega" region is just not on, and that the four county solution is more appropriate. This is why getting the majority of the Cornish people on side is important, as I suspect that without Cornwall it will definitely be a non-starter. Unfortunately, I cannot really do any lobbying, as I am not currently living in Devon, but I care enough about the County to urge all who can, to do so.

Incidentally, my bit about the Earl of Devon (in my previous posting), was my sarcastic way of demonstrating how weak the Cornish Duchy argument is. I wasn't seriously advocating home rule for Devon.


Plymouth Exile

Ozzie Exile,

I think I may have got to the bottom of the Duchy conundrum. If I am correct, they are trying to pull a fast one again. The case was heard because the Crown were claiming that the strip of coast between high and low tides belonged to the Crown in Cornwall, just as it did elsewhere, but the Duchy contested this, saying that it belonged to the Duchy. It would appear that included in the Duchy submission was the following:-

"The legal position was cited in the notable Duchy of Cornwall v the Crown case of 1855, when it was confirmed by the Attorney General to the Duchy, Sir George Harrison, that Cornwall was, in law, a Palatine State , extra-territorial to the English Crown and whose quasi-sovereign is the Duke of Cornwall; that during the Kingdom, Earldom and Duchy, Cornwall had always been treated as distinct from England; and that its eastern boundary confirmed that set up in 931 AD, that is, the east bank of the Tamar river."

Because the ruling went to the Duchy, the nationalists deduce that the above submission must have been fully accepted by the court. However, other sources seem to imply that the real reason behind the court's verdict was that this strip of shoreline was considered to be a source of alluvial tin, and as the Duchy was responsible for the Stannaries, and hence all tin bearing ground (in both Cornwall and Devon), the Duchy won the day. If this was so, then the court would have considered the above piece of submission to be irrelevant to the case, and would have ignored it. Thus, in the context of the case having anything to do with proving that the Duchy and the county were the same, it is a complete red herring.


Plymouth Exile

Hopefully everyone already knows that the voting page is now up and running.

But did you know that we're also looking for people who may like to be interviewed for Spotlight TV about the need for a Devon flag.

All the details here: A791949

Ozzie Exile,

It would appear that the Devon foreshore also comes under the control of the Duchy. See link below.

http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1992/Uksi_19922902_en_4.htm


Plymouth Exile

Firstly,

Thanks to BBC Devon for some of the 360 degree pictures. The ones of Dartmoor (especially) are spectacular.

You guys may also be interested, but since I saw a reference to 'Wessex' on the correspondence (from Plymouth Exile I think) I went to pay the Wessex Society website a visit.

Whilst I am sure they are well meaning, they seek to lump Devon (but stangely not Cornwall) into a Wessex region running from the london suburbs to Plymouth.

Now, as far as I am concerned, this is rubbish. Fine for them, but it isn't Devon.

Plymouth Exile (and others), you may have some energy left after your confrontation with our Cornish bretheren to spend some time with this misguided representatives from our east.

It takes a couple of logon screens, but no great effort.

Do you really believe Devon is part of some amorphous 'Wessex' group speading all the way to London.

I have no problem with their society, but including Devon in it seems a touch extreme. Your thoughts please?

Coref