A Conversation for Noam Chomsky
Edited Guide Writing Workshop: A688728 - Noam Chomskey
purplejenny Started conversation Jan 31, 2002
Entry: Noam Chomskey - A688728
Author: purplejenny - U97672
New Years Resolution - get Chomskey in the guide. Comments and assistance please!
A688728 - Noam Chomskey
purplejenny Posted Jan 31, 2002
Ok, the 'e' was wrong. Chomksy not Chomskey.
Cheers P.
A688728 - Noam Chomskey
xyroth Posted Jan 31, 2002
First, a piccy point. in the second paragraph, you say "his father worked as a and his mother." this needs the missing bits completing.
As to the rest, it gives a very good description of his influence on politics, but almost totally ignores his major contributions to linguistics.
You mention his idea of a universal grammar, but don't really mention what it is. As for the much more significant and useful transformational and generative grammar's, these don't even get a mention.
I think that you ought to go and search for some stuff about these, add at least give them a mention before this is acceted for the edited guide, otherwise it will be a real pig to try and get fixed later.
A688728 - Noam Chomskey
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Jan 31, 2002
I agree with Xyroth (for once!). I was disappointed by this because I thought it would be all about linguistics. Politics does not seem as important, to me. I think you should at least dig up some stuff about the linguistics because it is only in this context that I have ever heard Chomsky mentioned. I suspect his political views may be important in America but do not have great application in other countries.
You will need to put some headings into it. Perhaps, Biography, Politics and Linguistics. You don't normally need a title "Introduction". THe first bit between the start of the article and the first heading is automatically the introductions.
A688728 - Noam Chomskey
Spiff Posted Jan 31, 2002
Hiya,
I too was disappointed to find so little about Chomsky's contributions to linguistic studies. I rather assumed you had chosen to concentrate on his political activities because there was an existing entry on his main work, but a search revealed no such entries. Indeed, there is a real gap there.
Chomsky is *the* biggest name in linguistics, as far as I can see. He developed radical theories that were initially refuted and later accepted. Then, if I am not mistaken, when these theories were being widely accepted, he refuted them *himself* and 'proved' himself wrong! Naturally, he then went off and devised a new radical theory and we are still waiting to see what will become of it.
My version may or may not be accurate, but barring a title change, I think you need some details of his linguistic work in there.
Dare I suggest that what you really need is three articles. One on Chomsky himself, another (at least) on his linguistic work and another on his political work. If you were brave enough to take this on yourself it would not be difficult to include appropriate links and it'd make a great series of entries. Just a thought.
On the other hand, the above suggestion that you divide this piece into sections and flesh them out would achieve much the same, and could result in an excellent single entry. Just another thought.
So, although I don't think this is right yet, I *do* think you have started on an excellent subject that will result in a (at least one) great article with a little work. Good luck.
Seeya
Spiff
*leaving the hard work to PJ*
A688728 - Noam Chomskey
xyroth Posted Feb 1, 2002
his linguistic theories were developed in a series of four works.
syntactic structures (1957)
current issues in linguistic theory (1964)
aspects of the theory of syntax (1965)
reflections on language (1975)
These four papers formed the basis for his work on transformational grammar, out of which came both his classification of grammars into different types and later his idea of an underlying universal grammar which was further developed to be presented as being inate, which the local grammar was mapped onto during child development.
This universal grammar is a moderately accepted idea, but the idea that it is inate, and that you are genetically programmed to be able to learn a language was highly controversial (I don't know if it still is).
The grammars are classified into types:
Type 0, completely general grammars
type 1, context sensitive grammars
type 2, phrase structure or context free grammars
type 3, regular or finite state grammars
Because of his theory of a universal grammar, it was essential that these grammars were modeled as transformational grammars, which proved a godsend to the computer industry, who were struggling to get a deeper understanding of compilers and interpreters and of language parsing in general.
I hope this helps to extend the article.
keep up the good work.
A688728 - Noam Chomskey
KendallHorse Posted Feb 4, 2002
Hi -
I just wanted to say that I really liked your article on Chomsky. I am not familiar with his work in Linguistics, but we have studied his political work in Philosophy class (here in Brazil). I'd like to comment on what Gnomon said regarding his political views being unimportant outside America.
Outside of America, Chomsky's work is viewed with much less suspicion than it is within it. I've read numerous articles about Chomsky which brand him a subversive, a firebreathing radical, and goodness knows what else. Here in Brazil (and in numerous other countries), Chomsky is taken with the seriousness he deserves.
Much of his work specifically focuses on America, of course, but this is relevant around the world, because much of which Chomsky speaks about occurs in almost every country. America is his example, because he lives in it and because it is the greatest representative of modern capitalism, but his logic applies almost anywhere...
Cheers!
A688728 - Noam Chomskey
purplejenny Posted Feb 5, 2002
hello.
Ta for the help and comments so far. I agree that there is still a lot of work to be done, and it may be useful to split it into three articles, or maybe sections, Biography, Linguistics and Politics. I will be able to give this more time soon, so expect a second draft within a weekish. However, I know very little about his linguistic work so will need more help on the linguistics bit, so any links or info woulde be greatfully recieved.
I and am glad to hear from Sciefyr that his political work is well regarded within Brazil. That strikes me as particularly interesting given his writings on American involvement in the region, the influence of the IMF and the disastrous implementation of unbridled neo-liberalism in Brazil.
I'm writing this entry cos I feel that Chomskys political work is a very salient, thorough and important analysis that deserves more prominant media coverage. But I agree that his linguistic 'dayjob' should be covered too...
in progress
pj
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
purplejenny Posted Feb 5, 2002
hello.
Ta for the help and comments so far. I agree that there is still a lot of work to be done, and it may be useful to split it into three articles, or maybe sections, Biography, Linguistics and Politics. I will be able to give this more time soon, so expect a second draft within a weekish. However, I know very little about his linguistic work so will need more help on the linguistics bit, so any links or info would be gratefully recieved.
I am glad to hear from Sciefyr that his political work is well regarded within Brazil. That strikes me as particularly interesting given his writings on American involvement in the region, the influence of the IMF and the disastrous implementation of unbridled neo-liberalism in Brazil.
I'm writing this entry cos I feel that Chomskys political work is a very salient, thorough and important analysis that deserves more prominant media coverage. But I agree that his linguistic 'dayjob' should be covered too...
in progress
pj
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
Deidzoeb Posted Feb 6, 2002
Looks like a great start, pj, but calling linguistics Chomsky's "dayjob" might be like saying that Einstein was an anti-war activist who did some science on the side. People talk about Chomsky like he's the number one name in Linguistics for the 20th Century. They also talk about his impact on psychology and philosophy, but then it gets into Philosophy of Linguistics, History of psycholinguistics, Linguistics of Psychohistory, and by that point, I'm lost.
This might help:
http://mitpress2.mit.edu/e-books/chomsky/
"Noam Chomsky: A Life of Dissent" by Robert F. Barsky
Apparently the text of the whole book is online!
Xyroth gives some good details up above, but without putting this stuff into layman's terms, it won't be helpful or interesting to anyone but die-hard Linguistics fans. Also I'd suggest some kind of polishing on that line about "conspiracy theorist." I know what you meant, because he gets accused of conspiracy when he says the New York Times and all major media censor themselves from discussion of genocide in East Timor, etc. Maybe you could say Chomsky's critics call him a conspiracy theorist, then try to explain why, and then explain why they're wrong.
Thanks for pointing me over here. People need to know more about this guy.
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
purplejenny Posted Feb 6, 2002
OK, the 'dayjob' comment was a bit flippant, you got me there. I guess I'd better do some more reading.
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
purplejenny Posted Feb 6, 2002
eek
Ta for the link subcom...
"The task of writing a biography of Noam Chomsky gives new meaning to the word daunting. Chomsky is one of this century's most important figures, and has been described as one who will be for future generations what Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Mozart, or Picasso have been for ours. He is the most cited living person... "
http://mitpress2.mit.edu/e-books/chomsky/intro.html
I'm now a bit scared Still, theres a lot of info about him, and an entry for the Guide can only cover so much. So log as there are plenty of links to further info, I hope to keep it to a manageable length... Do any of you know of anyone else who might wanna help?
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
Researcher 188007 Posted Aug 22, 2002
My advice: leave the politics in, take the linguistic fairy-stories out.
I had to suffer the man for 3 years at uni. For a time, while he and his cronies were in control, lingustics was going full speed astern.
I'll be back when I'm feeling a little less flippant...
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
Researcher 188007 Posted Aug 22, 2002
I reserve the right to misspell that word...
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
Gnomon - time to move on Posted Aug 22, 2002
Jack, there is no doubt that Chomsky was a famous linguist. So any description of his life and work would have to mention linguistics. I take it you are not a Chomsky fan. How would you categorise him?
1. important to the modern study of linguistics and its links with cognitive psychology;
2. largely discredited;
3. controversial with ardent followers and opponents.
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
xyroth Posted Aug 22, 2002
As he introduced (as far as I can find out) a lot of the fundamentals of transformational grammers, then he is fundamental to the current state of computer programming (due to compilers being based upon it).
It also made the work on comparative linguistics a lot easier.
his influence because of the science in his linguistic work is such that just about every book on linguistics has given his work a mention. his philosophising as to the possible interpretations of the underlying science are more controversial, and rub a lot of people with opposing beliefs up the wrong way.
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
Researcher 188007 Posted Aug 23, 2002
Yesterday was definitely more Thing than Thursday. Some more sensible comments follow.
>"Chomsky is one of this century's most important figures, and has been described as one who will be for future generations what Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Mozart, or Picasso have been for ours. He is the most cited living person... "<
Written by a fan. Chomsky has always been very divisive.
I would say that he is one of the most overrated intellectuals of all time. He is probably unmatched at arguing and polemics, but much poorer at providing evidence for his opinions. I see his role as very much like Freud's in psychology - he smitulated a huge amount of interest in the field in question but was later largely discredited.
In Chomsky's case, this was mainly because he tried to turn language into maths - fortuitously timed to meet the advent of computers. The more slippery elements of language he simply ignored. He also proclaimed that there were universals to be found in all languages, but for the first decade of his works, almost all study was of English. There's more of course, but that'll do for now.
That hopefully answers your question, Gnomon - he is 1, 2 and (especially) 3 of your categories. I would certainly expect mention of his linguistics, but I'd like to see a balanced view of overall effect on the subject.
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
GTBacchus Posted Sep 1, 2002
Hello, everyone.
It looks like Chomsky's linguistics would make this entry long enough that it would need to be split anyway. Why not re-title this one something like 'Noam Chomsky's Political Thought' and get it into Peer Review? It's a good entry about that; it just doesn't have the content some people expect to find under the current title.
The mention of linguistics you have in the first paragraph now probably ought to include the word 'controversial', it seems, and maybe a couple of keywords like 'transformative whatchacallit', or whatever.
A688728 - Noam Chomsky
Researcher 188007 Posted Sep 1, 2002
Aw, doesn't anyone want to argue about Chomsky with me?
Key: Complain about this post
Edited Guide Writing Workshop: A688728 - Noam Chomskey
- 1: purplejenny (Jan 31, 2002)
- 2: purplejenny (Jan 31, 2002)
- 3: purplejenny (Jan 31, 2002)
- 4: xyroth (Jan 31, 2002)
- 5: Gnomon - time to move on (Jan 31, 2002)
- 6: Spiff (Jan 31, 2002)
- 7: xyroth (Feb 1, 2002)
- 8: KendallHorse (Feb 4, 2002)
- 9: purplejenny (Feb 5, 2002)
- 10: purplejenny (Feb 5, 2002)
- 11: Deidzoeb (Feb 6, 2002)
- 12: purplejenny (Feb 6, 2002)
- 13: purplejenny (Feb 6, 2002)
- 14: Researcher 188007 (Aug 22, 2002)
- 15: Researcher 188007 (Aug 22, 2002)
- 16: Gnomon - time to move on (Aug 22, 2002)
- 17: xyroth (Aug 22, 2002)
- 18: Researcher 188007 (Aug 23, 2002)
- 19: GTBacchus (Sep 1, 2002)
- 20: Researcher 188007 (Sep 1, 2002)
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