h2g2 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: Earth Edition

I have absolutely no problem with you being Christian.... Which is where the problem I DO have stems from. It therefore stands to reason that you should have no problem with me being, for instance, Jewish.

I'm not sure exactly where I'm going here, I guess I'm just asking you to explain what you mean by saying that you're going to force your beliefs on me because you care about me.

Written in the nicest and least offending (and offended) of manners, just curious and trying to stimulate intellectual conversation,
Strider

Force is probably not a good word to use. I have an intense desire to share my beliefs with others and sometimes I'm accused of being pushy. I find religions such as Buddhism somewhat selfish in their lack of desire to convert followers. If someone sincerely believes that he holds to key to the universe, he ought to let the world know.

I never thought of it that way. I still disagree with you, but I understand your logic. Thank you for answering me. I appreciate it.

-Strider

Christianity is not an intolerant religion, nor is it entirely indifferent. It's a very happy medium where you can disapprove of something and do something to change it without being violent.

I agree with you that beliefs should be shared. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and spend a lot of my time teaching people the truth from God's Word, and the hope it holds out for the near future. The important thing is the take the Bible as the authority in making decisions and laying down principles.

Since it is clear from Daniel, Isaiah, Revelation and other books that we are living in the "last days" (2Tim 3:1-5), it is vital that everyone should have the chance to learn about Jehovah and his purpose.

Which denomination of Christianity do you belong to? I only ask because I want to know where you're coming from in your arguments. And finally, while I take your point about tolerance, there are laws and principles laid down in the Bible which must NOT be overstepped however "intolerant" that may make you appear.

I'll be updating my space soon to include something about my religion. Nice to find someone here who's willing to discuss the subject,

Cadi.

Yes, there are some parts of the bible which may not be ignored they are these:

No Adultery
No Murder
God is God.

With that in mind, none of those require you to impress your beliefs on other people even *after* they have expressed their wish that they not be bothered. If someone specifically asks you to go away because they love their religion (or lack thereof) and find the implication that their current beliefs are inferior to theirs, then you have an obligation as a human being to leave them alone.

Harrasement deplorable, even if you are trying to save somebodey from damnation.

(still not actually offended or mean spirited, just trying to express my opinion)

-Strider

Strider-

Fortunately, once someone tells us to leave them alone (and at that point, we should) then we can still reach out to them through prayer. If someone tells me they don't want to hear any more, I don't tell them anything more until they are ready, but that doesn't mean I have to stop caring or working to get them saved.

Cadi-

I'm a Baptist. I admire the Jehovah's witnesses for their outreach though I'm not sure I agree with their theology. I really don't know much about your theology, though. Perhaps you can inform me.

All right, as long as you'll give them their peace (when asked).

I probably should have put this in earlier.

I am a conservative Jew. I believe that everybody has a right to live as they see fit. I consider myself to be very religious, but there are some Jews who would consider me otherwise. I am happy to discuss any religious beliefs with anybody (if they want to hear). I don't believe that anything bad happens to people who die while under different beliefs than I.

Jewish practice calls that any rabbi who has a prospective convert (ie somebody comes up to him/her and asks to convert) must refuse to convert that person two times. Only when the person asks to convert a third time will the rabbi consent. This practice ensures that only a person who truly believes in the Jewish teachings will become a Jew. After all, do you really want someone to be a member of your religion if they don't really believe in what the religion says?

still happy

-Strider

That's the difference between Judaism and Christianity. You say your Priest converts followers. I believe God does the converting. We as Christian are called to spread to good news, but only God himself can change a person's heart.

Actually, while the Rabbi does do the conversion, the belief is that certain individuals were born with Jewish souls, but raised in non-Jewish envirements. It is these individuals who wish to convert and who seek out rabbis. The rabbi's job is simply to conform whether or not the individual truly wants to be Jewish.

Strider - As a Christian, I of course take Jesus's command to "Go forth and make disciples of all the nations", but there are precidents in the Hebrew Scriptures, or Old Testament as some call it (compare Ezekiel 33:7). Noah, Isaiah, Jerimiah, Enoch and others were given a divine commision to preach - and continued in the teeth of opposition. They spoke the truth again and again to people who wanted nothing more than to be left alone, in peace, to get on with their lives. They did this, not only because God had commanded it, but because they wanted people to come to an accurate knowledge of God, and turn to worshipping Him acceptably. So much so that when Jerimiah wanted to stop preaching, he found that he couldn't! (Jerimiah 20:9)

Josh - As for what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, the key points are these:
The Bible is the word of God and is the ultimate authority (2 Timothy 3:16)
Jesus' sacrificial death opened the way back to perfection, for man to regain what Adam and Eve rejected. (Acts 4:12)
Jesus is God's son, not his equal (John 14:28 )
God's personal name is Jehovah (Psalm 83:18 King James Version) and it is important to use this name (John 17:6; Matthew 6:9)
God's Kingdom is a real government that will soon rule over the whole earth with Jesus as it's appointed King. This Kingdom rule is the central theme of our preaching activity (Matthew 6:10; Luke 4:43)
144,000 annointed ones will reign with Jesus in heaven, but countless others with live forever on a paradise earth. (Revelation 14:1,3; Psalm 37:29)
When God's Kingdom arrives, it will remove all wickedness from the earth (Daniel 2:44)
The time of the Kingdom's arrival is very near - several prophecies about the "last days" are seeing fulfilment. Compare 2 Timothy 3:1-5, and Jesus' words recorded at Matthew 24:3-14 and Luke 21:7-13,25-31.
We remain neutral in political matters, since we are "no part of the world" (John 17:16, 15:19)
We believe that hope for life after death is found not in the survival of an immortal soul, but in resurection by Jehovah. (John 5:28,29)

All this and more can be found at the Official Website of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. The URL would only be removed if I typed it here, so search for "Watchtower" and you'll find it, since that *is* the URL, missing only the "[URL removed by moderator]" part.
However, beware of unofficial sites, there are plenty! Everything on the official site is also available from the Witness who make door to door calls, so there are several ways of obtaining furthur information about us.

The Bible is the word of God and is the ultimate authority (2 Timothy 3:16)

Check. I believe the same.

Jesus' sacrificial death opened the way back to perfection, for man to regain what Adam and Eve rejected. (Acts 4:12)

Okay...the wording here is fuzzy, but I guess I agree with that.

Jesus is God's son, not his equal (John 14:28 )

John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." Jesus calls himself "the word" and therefore I believe he is God's equal and his son all in the same.

God's personal name is Jehovah (Psalm 83:18 King James Version) and it is important to use this name (John 17:6; Matthew 6:9)

There are hundreds of incedences in the Bible where God is called by men and women of great faith something other that Jehovah. Jesus answered to "Rabbi" "Teacher" "the son of God". When Moses asked who the voice was coming from the burning bush, God did not answer Jehovah. He said, "I am, that I am." All the same I believe it matters very little what you call him, only that you revere and fear and worship him.

God's Kingdom is a real government that will soon rule over the whole earth with Jesus as it's appointed King. This Kingdom rule is the central theme of our preaching activity (Matthew 6:10; Luke 4:43)
144,000 annointed ones will reign with Jesus in heaven, but countless others with live forever on a paradise earth. (Revelation 14:1,3; Psalm 37:29)

Those 144,000 who are refered to in Revelation are actually Jews who did not accept Christ and therefore will miss the rapture of the church. Afterwards they realize that they are sinners, separated from God and accept Him as their personal Savior. Look it up in Revelation for yourself They then go and preach to all the world the good news. Also, Jesus's sacrifice was for all men. The glory of heaven is open to all people, not just 144,000.

When God's Kingdom arrives, it will remove all wickedness from the earth (Daniel 2:44)

For a while yes, but in the latter part of Revelation (Chapter 15 I think, but I'm not sure) says the devil will be set free for a short time after 1,000 years. He will raise up two armies, Gog and Magog and they will march to Jerusalem, but will be consumed by fire. Then, the Earth will be destroyed. I'll get you that scripture reference later.

The time of the Kingdom's arrival is very near - several prophecies about the "last days" are seeing fulfilment. Compare 2 Timothy 3:1-5, and Jesus' words recorded at Matthew 24:3-14 and Luke 21:7-13,25-31.
We remain neutral in political matters, since we are "no part of the world" (John 17:16, 15:19)

I too believe the last days are near, but "Man knows not his time." and the Bible also says that "even the angels do not know"

We believe that hope for life after death is found not in the survival of an immortal soul, but in resurection by Jehovah. (John 5:28,29)

Why would God have us die just to resurrect us again? I thought the point of following Christ was to be "alive in Christ"

Death was never part of Jehovah's plan for mankind. Adam and Eve were told that they would die if they were disobedient, and so the implication is that had they not broken God's law they would be alive today.

However, Adam and Eve did sin, so Jehovah set the wheels in motion for a recovery of the situation. He gave the first prophecy (Gen 3:16) in which he pledged his son as a ransom sacrifice, and set a time limit on Satan's activities. I agree that "concerning that hour no-one knows, not even the son but only God" (I may have messed up the end of that quote, it's from memory). But the "signs of the times" are clear enough. We should "keep constantly in mind the day of Jehovah".

On the Trinity doctrine, I can only point you to the many times in the Gospels that Jesus stresses that his father is greater than he is. Reguarding John 1:1, sorry if you think I'm splitting hairs, but in the original Greek, (use an interlinear, you don't have to go to the British Library!) translated word for word the verse reads : "In the beginning the word was with THE God and the word was god."

Greek doesn't have a word for 'a' (neither does Welsh, as a matter of fact). The indefinate article is assumed unless the definate article is used. So, "the God" = God Almighty, ie Jehovah. "god" = a god = powerful person (in this case, Jesus Christ). In the Bible, many powerful people are called "gods". Satan is "the god of this world", Baal was a god, albeit a false one, and the judges in ancient Isreal were called gods on one occasion. (Don't have Bible here, will look scriptures up later)

It is important to use Jehovah's name, even if only out of respect for his feelings. How would you like to be called nothing but "boy"? (or "girl" I suppose. Take nothing for granted on the internet!), or even "mister". They both describe you, but that's not your name!

But we also use God's name because it is at the centre of the whole issue. "Let your name be sanctified", "I have made your name known", "Everyone calling on the name of Jehovah (or the LORD, probably in your translation) will be saved." The name "Jehovah" means "He causes to become", and deepens our faith in his ability to fulfil his promises. Names in the Bible often have important meanings (consider God changing Jacob's name to Isreal - or Naomi saying "do not call me Naomi [rejoicing(?)], call me Myra [bitterness]". He has chosen a name for himself - much like we do here in h2g2 - and that is what he wants to be called.

Will do a seperate posting on the 144,000. There are a few things I want to look up. I'll try and get back to you before I go home, (I don't have internet access from there) but if not it'll be in the new year.

Cadi

I must say that I do find your terms somewhat offensive. You say

"I find religions such as Buddhism somewhat selfish in their lack of desire to convert followers".

Strictly speaking, why do we have any need to? (In case you hadn't guessed, I'm a Buddhist myself.) I looked up the word 'religion' in the dictionary just to be sure. According to the Collins Dictionary, 'religion' is defined as meaning 'belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny'. It is a common misconception that the Buddha is revered by Buddhists in the same way that Christians worship their God. This is not true - 'Buddha' simply means 'wise one', and the Guatama Buddha (whom most of the world thinks of as 'the' Buddha) was not the only such person; essentially, we just think that this was a man who had some pretty good ideas on how to live your life, and hey - why not try to emulate his example?

Okay - I'm not a 'proper' Buddhist: if I were, I'd be atheist. As it is, I'm a Taoist-Buddhist - that is, with some of the old Chinese religion mixed in. I like to believe that we are all as legitimate as each other in our beliefs, and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else that I held the 'key to the universe', as you say, because what if I'm wrong?

Incidentally - if you agree that 'force' is probably not a good word to use, then why don't you change it?

Em

Got distracted in previous posting, and forgot to make main point. We do not have an immortal soul, or anything that survives death. "On that day his thoughts do perish" (Ecclesiastes something or other). The first lie "you positivly will not die", told Eve by Satan gave rise to the belief that we somehow don't *really* die - just go somewhere else. This belief is not scriptural. "Soul" literally translates "breather". Hence "Man came to *be* a living soul" (Genesis 2 - I think! Maybe I should carry my bible with me more often, this not knowing the verse is annoying.)

Anyway, that's it. Will take up debate again when I come back in the new year.

Bye!

Cadi-

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Because of this verse, I believe that heaven in open to all who accept God's gift of grace, not a mere 144,000.

"Our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ." Philippians 3:20

Note that Paul does not say, "Some of our citizenships are in heaven."

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." Revelation 21:1

That's pretty self explainatory. The earth will be destroyed.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." Matthew 23:35

Here it is again.

"Store up for yourselves treasures in heaven..." Matthew 6:20a

This verse instructs us all to store up treasures in heaven, implying again that heaven is open to all who seek it.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Whew! That's quite a verse. Note the "whosoever" and the "should not perish". Anyone who knocks will find that the door is opened, and recieves eternal life on the spot with no conditions applying, and no dying.

"No one knows about that day or hour not even the angels in heaven, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36

All the same, it is an interesting thing to wonder about.

"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living..." Luke 20:38

The whole idea behind being a Christian is to escape from death (and share that testimony), so I do not believe we die to be raised again, but we go to heaven as soon as we die.

"For the lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of water." Revelation 7:17

You really ought to read the surrounding passage. It is a beautiful picture of heaven. But as you can see, Jesus will be in heaven and he will be as God on the "center of the throne." Chapters 6 and 7 give an extensive account of the 144,000 and the events preceding their ministy. Note that there are 12,000 from each tribe of Isreal. This is why as a Christian, I believe that the 144,000 are Jewish, and do not accept that you or your constituents are one of these.

Directly after that in verse 9 of Chapter 7, we see that there are more than 144,000 in heaven:

"After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb."

One of the other things I notice about Revelation is that it is always the Lamb, or Jesus being worshiped. For this reason and others mentioned, I believe that Jesus is God's equal.

I hope I haven't come across as rude, but as a Jehovah's Witness, perhaps you understand the spiritual need to share my beliefs.

Cadi-

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Because of this verse, I believe that heaven in open to all who accept God's gift of grace, not a mere 144,000.

"Our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ." Philippians 3:20

Note that Paul does not say, "Some of our citizenships are in heaven."

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." Revelation 21:1

That's pretty self explainatory. The earth will be destroyed.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away." Matthew 23:35

Here it is again.

"Store up for yourselves treasures in heaven..." Matthew 6:20a

This verse instructs us all to store up treasures in heaven, implying again that heaven is open to all who seek it.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Whew! That's quite a verse. Note the "whosoever" and the "should not perish". Anyone who knocks will find that the door is opened, and recieves eternal life on the spot with no conditions applying, and no dying.

"No one knows about that day or hour not even the angels in heaven, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36

All the same, it is an interesting thing to wonder about.

"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living..." Luke 20:38

The whole idea behind being a Christian is to escape from death (and share that testimony), so I do not believe we die to be raised again, but we go to heaven as soon as we die.

"For the lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of water." Revelation 7:17

You really ought to read the surrounding passage. It is a beautiful picture of heaven. But as you can see, Jesus will be in heaven and he will be as God on the "center of the throne." Chapters 6 and 7 give an extensive account of the 144,000 and the events preceding their ministy. Note that there are 12,000 from each tribe of Isreal. This is why as a Christian, I believe that the 144,000 are Jewish, and do not accept that you or your constituents are one of these.

Directly after that in verse 9 of Chapter 7, we see that there are more than 144,000 in heaven:

"After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb."

One of the other things I notice about Revelation is that it is always the Lamb, or Jesus being worshiped. For this reason and others mentioned, I believe that Jesus is God's equal.

I hope I haven't come across as rude, but as a Jehovah's Witness, perhaps you understand the spiritual need to share my beliefs.

Hello, Emily. I actually used the word "push". Granted, you don't need to witness to be a religion, but I think truth is important enough that people must search for, then spread it. I was born and grew up in Japan, and had many Buddhist childhood friends, so I know a little about it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Buddhists don't spread their religion because they believe that everyone will eventually see the truth after being reincarnated enough times. Is that true?

In part, but it's not about seeking salvation of any sort. The concept of Nirvana is not as an equivalent of 'heaven', but as a state of total knowledge - basically, a good analogy would be our very own '42': it's realising the answer to life, the universe and everything, but also understanding what it *means*. I can't tell you what it is, because I haven't reached that stage yet; I probably won't in my lifetime. There are actually two schools of Buddhism, Theravada and Manayana - one believes that you can help others to attain enlightenment, whilst the other believes that this is a state that must be reached alone. Basically, it's not that only Buddhists can ever achieve enlightenment and total peace - *anyone* can, it's just that Buddhism offers a possible strategy, if you like. In that sense, it's really more of a philosophy than a religion.

I hope that helps.

Josh: I'm still working through all your qoetes. wow. out of quoriosity, do you have all of those memorized? if so, you really are a genious!

Cadi: Looking forward to you rejoining the converstaion.

Em: Nice to have a new religion being represented here. (about time we had a non-monotheistic here) enjoy the conversation!